Mumsnet listed as Anti-Trans

[Hoosemover]

there a list of organisations and Mumsnet is on it. Along with the Equality and Human Rights Commission.

x.com/twisterfilm/status/1888255119449268674?s=61

What do you mean @Maaate? I'm not disagreeing with you but what is the transphobia they post?

Apparently it's NOT transphobic to say trans women shouldn't compete in women's sports. 🤷🏼‍♀️

Ah right, yes I get you. I've heard that argument a few times. Like that's the line that should be drawn. But all of it's a fucking line!!

One very clear example is there has been a few posters recently, who declare they are feminists and fully trans supportive, who actually will argue with self proclaimed authority about which people are or are not transgender. They have set themselves up to define who is and is not transgender.

That is pretty much the definition of transphobic to me.

It seems I've been deleted but I will accept that I was pushing it. However for anyone reading this afterwards I didn't say either/or as I gave other options as I was trying to figure out where being trans lay. If it's not physical or mental, what is it? I haven't a clue so maybe someone can explain what they think it might be.

I think we've all moved on and can accept that homosexuality is neither a fetish, a cult or a mental illness (to refer to your comment)
I've never seen homosexuality as anything different than physical attraction. Most people have types that turn them on, whether it's same sex, physical build, or money/confidence.

And yet I just read upthread that telling people how they feel is wrong.

Surely that extends to telling people who they are is wrong?

Hmm....

Yep, everyone has a line that to another person is transphobia.

Which is why it amuses me so much when the scolders turn up because you know it won't be long until they say something that has been deemed transphobic.

Absolutely. But the particular posters who do it, will try to fall back that they are just stating what they have learned in their studies and work and talking to transgender people.

Yes the transactivists get furious if you frame it plainly as "men who desire to be women" and "women who want to be men".

Kittens are really difficult to sex. You are looking at a selection of tiny holes and bits. I had two apparent queens, and realised one was a tom when he attempted to mate with his companion.
But sex is still binary. Apparently chicken sexers (also difficult) were required during WWII.
Humans are not difficult at all (except 0.02% DSD at birth and chromosomes now sort them out).

I think it's absolutely understandable to say that being transgender/having gender dysphoria originates in the brain without implying it is also a mental illness. Someone has already explained how that reasoning lead to the misclassification of homosexuality for so long, assuming it was either a mental illness or a fetish, so I think it's fair to argue transgenderism is something similar.

On the purely definitional level, it could be argued to be a kind of neurodivergence. As in, a difference in the way the brain works, but not an illness. I don't want people to think I'm comparing being trans to autism, ADHD and the like- though I am autistic myself- simply that if we define "neurodivergence" as "a brain that forms or works differently" then being transgender may well fit that category.

However, there is absolutely no proof that this is a matter of brain function though. That is a theory, but research has been done and has not come up with anything. Whereas there is plenty of findings to discuss regarding autism etc that show what might be able to assist with diagnosis in the future.

And because there are many aspects of people claiming gender identities, including teens claiming that they personally are doing this as a lifestyle choice on social media, if it in the very distant future limits who is transgender and who is not, will that be even welcomed?

Being purely theoretical though, with absolutely no indication that there is any foundation to that theory at all, why have politicians and policy makers been so convinced to deprioritise the necessary sex based protections needed for female people to prioritise a group of male people with gender identities to allow them to access any provision set aside for female people (and when I refer to female people, I mean female people of any gender identity)?

So, at the moment what we have is a group's philosophical belief about their own identity being prioritised above another group's proven sex based needs. Which other group in society has been given these extra privileges based on a philosophical belief?

The ICD classifies 'gender incongruence' as a 'condition related to sexual health'.

So one could call it a 'condition'.

https://icd.who.int/browse/2024-01/mms/en#411470068

That said, 'transvestic fetishism' is still classed under 'paraphilias'.

And some trans people are this.

https://icd.who.int/browse/2024-01/mms/en#2055403635

'Boundary with Gender Incongruence of Adolescence or Adulthood: Individuals who have a focused and intense pattern of sexual arousal involving cross-dressing might qualify for the diagnosis of Paraphilic Disorder Involving Solitary Behaviour or Consenting Individuals if they are markedly distressed by having this pattern of arousal. A history of sexual excitement in association with cross-dressing can sometimes be a feature of Gender Incongruence that develops in adolescence or adulthood, but such a history is not a sufficient basis for diagnosing Paraphilic Disorder Involving Solitary Behaviour or Consenting Individuals.'

If you see anything transphobic then you should report it and it will be deleted. However MNet is one of the few places where you are allowed to state biological facts because they aren’t “transphobic”. Women’s rights and child safeguarding, evidence based medicine - also not transphobic,

If your definition of anti trans is anything that is not affirming or respectful of someones internal identity or of gender ideology as a whole then yes I suppose Mumsnet is anti trans.

Personally I think anyone, or any forum, that does believe in gender ideology must be deeply misogynistic to buy into any part of it. However most, if not all, pro trans posters would vehemently deny they are misogynistic in any way.

So it's a bit of a stalemate situation. Which is why I don't really care about the anti trans accusations.

We have reached the point where a male person has demanded and received access to a female communal changing space for hospital staff and any media outlet or indeed barrister that uses 'he' instead of 'she' is being reported to Police in Scotland for hate crimes. I think any person declaring that MN is 'anti-trans' or 'transphobic' when it is actually a quite balanced moderated space is perhaps using the same gauge to evaluate what fits their personal definition as the person reporting those people to the police for hate crimes.

You told me how you felt, in detail, so I had an idea of how you felt. You said

I felt very unwomanly when I was very overweight and had facial hair from PCOS. I didn't feel like a real woman and it was very upsetting. I know others feel the same. I certainly worried about being pretty and felt my womanliness was tied to my femininity and attractiveness to men until my self esteem massively improved. Which only happened because I lost 5 stone and got laser hair removal.

And I said

You felt unwomanly with facial hair and excess weight, but you didn't feel like a man. You felt like a woman hating how you looked; all women feel like this sometimes.

I repeated, from your words, that you felt unwomanly with facial hair and excess weight. Nothing you said suggested you felt like a man, - just 'unwomanly', which isn't the same. Sorry if I misinterpreted it, and you did actually feel like a man.

If we comply, we are still not respected.

I felt like I looked like a man in drag. Not a real woman. At times I felt more like a man than a woman with facial hair, no periods, infertility and being large for a woman. I didn't feel like a real woman at all. It was very upsetting to feel physically manly when I knew I was a woman.

I can imagine that is the closest any non trans person will come to understanding how trans people feel, physically not matching how you feel inside and what you know you are and it is very distressing.

And yes, a big part of wanting to be a real woman is wanting to be pretty, because a big part of femininity is being pretty. Anybody who doesn't think that is taking their natural femininity for granted in my opinion. So I stand by saying it's not an obviously manly thing to want to be pretty when wanting your body to change to match your gender because I, a woman, felt that way too. It just felt like a mean spirited jab at trans people which isn't actually correct. And I also stand by people telling trans people how they feel, and that it is wrong, is the root cause of most of the transphobia that is seen here.

'a big part of wanting to be a real woman is wanting to be pretty, because a big part of femininity is being pretty'

That's one very partial view.

Being 'pretty' has fuck all to do with being a woman for many women.

Do you not think, @SailorSerena , the pressure to be pretty is part of the oppression of women not the definition of women?

You were ‘womaning’ perfectly correctly- hormonal struggles and all. You were no less a woman.
The pressure for women to be pretty, petite, gentle and demure- except when they’re hot for sex, obviously- is just more of society’s claptrap. Nothing to do with being a woman.

Cross post with Arabella.

I suppose the 'pretty' shit chimes with the crude sexist tropes of genderism.