Mumsnet listed as Anti-Trans

[Hoosemover]

there a list of organisations and Mumsnet is on it. Along with the Equality and Human Rights Commission.

x.com/twisterfilm/status/1888255119449268674?s=61

No I’m not.

They can believe whatever they want.

There is a medical physical element to being trans.

There is also a medical physical element to being a certain race or disabled.

Then he’s not trans.

I didn't ask you about 'your feelings of femininity', but never mind. I'm used to people making up what I've said on here. You talked about 'feeling female' which is what I asked for a single example of.

You've pretty much confirmed that you see 'female' and 'feminine' as interchangeable. I'd strongly disagree with you there.

You're transphobic.

Own it and stop trying to act like you are somehow morally superior because you exhibit your transphobia in a different manner to someone else.

That would be me, responding to Helle’s kind invitation to swear as much as I like. Feline disapproval notwithstanding, it was rather cathartic. (He’s back now because he wanted ear scratches)

Can’t you see how reductive and offensive it is to women who don’t want to be ‘pretty’ to say that a desire to be pretty is an intrinsic part of being ‘a real woman,’ Sailor?

When your life is impacted by what happened to you because you’re female, having someone say woman are all either feminine or wanting to be feminine is not just insulting but wrong. I am not womaning incorrectly.

I am a woman because I’m a female human being who reached adulthood. That is the single thing I share with every woman across history: our female bodies.

That’s it. No long hair, shaved body parts, makeup, jewellery, special clothes required.

Why do you think you conflate female and feminine?

I haven't said wanting to be pretty is an intrinsic part of being female. I've said it's a very female experience and it's incorrect to say it's an obviously male trying to be female want. Am I not womaning correctly because I want to be pretty?

I have had many experiences caused only due to being a woman. PCOS, Endometriosis, gynae medical trauma. It doesn't make me angry that trans women exist though I don't see why you conflate the two?

Female and feminine are obviously closely linked. The very definition of feminine is
adjective
1.
having qualities or an appearance traditionally associated with women or girls.
"the snowdrops gave a feminine touch to the table"
Similar:
womanly
womanlike
ladylike
girlish
female
soft
delicate
gentle
tender
graceful
refined
modest
girly
feminal
2.
Grammar
of or denoting a gender of nouns and adjectives, conventionally regarded as female.

It doesn't make me angry that trans women exist

Those people are all men. No anger at the mere existence of some men who make claims about their personal identity. Only anger when women suffer for it.

having qualities or an appearance traditionally associated with women or girls.

Followed by a list of gender stereotypes that make me want to do some decidedly unladylike swearing.

No, I’m not, but yes some people would accuse me of this.

You are transohobic, yet you still think you can stand in judgement of others.

That's a really odd perspective because I felt very unwomanly when I was very overweight and had facial hair from PCOS. I didn't feel like a real woman and it was very upsetting. I know others feel the same. I certainly worried about being pretty and felt my womanliness was tied to my femininity and attractiveness to men.

@SailorSerena , that’s you saying you didn’t feel like a real woman because of facial hair and not being pretty.

a big part of wanting to be a real woman is wanting to be pretty, because a big part of femininity is being pretty. Anybody who doesn't think that is taking their natural femininity for granted

And there’s you saying it’s a BIG part of being a real woman.

I’ve asked Himself if he’s spotted any natural femininity about me and he nearly did himself an injury laughing. So I don’t think I’m “taking mine for granted.”

Wanting to be attractive to men is not any part of being a woman. Some women want that. Some don’t. Are lesbians excluded from your concept of women? Or those of us with violent experiences with men who seek to avoid them?

It doesn’t make me “angry that transwomen exist”. I know several. They get on with their lives, I get on with mine.

What makes me “angry” is the men (because transwomen are a subset of men) who think their special feelings override the rights of women and girls to have places, groups, sporting events and safe spaces of our own. Away from male people, however they identify.

Blimey. Those are some regressive fucking stereotypes on that list under point 1.

Women are women, in the same way the Earth is round.
We can call the Earth other names, ugly Earth, beautiful Earth but it's still the same thing.

I’m not.

I support trans people.

Can you explain how I’m transphobic?

You don't think TW should compete in women's sports or be in women's spaces

That's considered massively transphobic by the TRAs and is big part of the reason why MN is denounced as transphobic. You joined in this denouncement despite having transphobic views.

Transphobic and hypocritical.

You arbitrate who is and isn't transgender according to your own definition and personal requirements.

I don’t see that as transphobic.

I’m not sure that’s why Mumsnet was labeled transphobic.

If some tras see it that way ok.

I go by the medical definition.

I go by what the trans people I love go by.

I would think women would want trans people to support them in sports and female only spaces?

You agree that MN is anti-trans despite holding views that have been deemed as transphobic yourself.

Your views are included as part of the reason why MN is considered anti-trans.

There is no medical definition of being trans. Trans people are who they say they are and medical intervention does not mean someone is or isn't trans. It's been deemed transphobic to say otherwise

I go by the medical definition.

What medical definition? Do you think every male claiming to be a woman is not entitled to the description unless they have had surgery and hormones?

having qualities or an appearance traditionally associated with women or girls.

It does not, however, follow that 'female' and 'feminine' are interchangeable.

There is no requirement for a female to be feminine (in order to be female), and no requirement for a feminine person (or action, or trait) to be (or be done by) a female person.

They may overlap at times but they are not different words for the same thing.

A lot of things that are 'traditionally associated' with women or girls form the basis of disgusting misogyny. It's important to separate the concepts.

It's important to realise that the things associated with being female/male are often wrong. And if you don't conform to those traits it doesn't mean anything as to whether your body is somehow 'correct' or not.

You agree that MN is anti-trans despite holding views that have been deemed as transphobic yourself.

Your views are included as part of the reason why MN is considered anti-trans.

Very well put.

^The trans identifying male who told women to reframe their trauma in prefer to accept men in their rape crisis centre would be a classic example where being trans undermined his suitability.
^

No. Being male made him unsuitable.

I am just letting you know that if you, personally are, claiming that MN is transphobic, that it is not credible that you be considered a moral judge on that.

Personally, I think you will find that many feminists will be focused on their own campaigning efforts rather than 'allies' because, as I have witnessed, other groups who claim to have the same objective they aim for are often not motivated for the same reasons and the details of that outcome can be quite different.