Mumsnet listed as Anti-Trans

[Hoosemover]

there a list of organisations and Mumsnet is on it. Along with the Equality and Human Rights Commission.

x.com/twisterfilm/status/1888255119449268674?s=61

I agree with you @Darker

@SailorSerena i would like to understand your point of view more.

Please can you give any single example of an attribute that "feels female"? I genuinely don't know what you mean by it if it's not something related to the female body. Do you mean something similar to "feminine"?

Please be inclusive enough to reply.

@SailorSerena
You said - You can't know other people's feelings and it's not other people's job to live in a way that pleases you if they are happy with the way they are living their life and living in a way that pleases you causes them psychological harm

I agree that you can't know other people's feelings but firstly, as others have said, we don't legislate regarding people's feelings. You are also right that it's not other people's job to live in a way that pleases me - however I can protest and do if that conflicts with my rights and their infringement of my rights causes me or any other women psychological or possibly physical harm. Women have a right to single sex spaces/sports/scholarships etc regardless of whether some men for whatever reason feels that causes them psychological harm.

Sure.

And discussion about the negative impacts that female people and children experience because of the 'support/adjustments' demanded by a group of people is legitimate and is not based on hate. Particularly when the group in the past stated that any discussion is transphobic so therefore none was to be had so they got to shape policy and law in a way that directly harmed female people and children.

I think you will find that feminists were right there at the very beginning saying 'we need to find equitable solutions that work for everyone'. Feminists are very well down the path of 'exploring other ways of doing things'. But instead of discussion, their suggestions were completely dismissed and labelled as transphobic.

So, as far as finding better solutions, absolutely. Let's finally do it!

And @Helleofabore , what are you doing to take the heat out of the discussion?

And what you are you doing to take the heat out of the discussion?

Is this you 'taking the heat out' of the discussion?

I was just going to post that this has been a good example of a full, rational, respectful discussion between posters holding different points of view.
Now suddenly there is 'heat' in the discussion and bizarrely it is Helleofabore's responsibility to take the heat out, whatever it is.

Just from my POV, @Helleofabore has been patiently trying to set out the issues clearly and without euphemism which is incredibly helpful, particularly if you are ND and trying to understand the core issues.

Speaking in catchphrases and baldly ignoring requests for clarification doesn't help and that's largely what we get from TRAs.

Roz Adams tried that and had to go through an Employment Tribunal.

Women are currently (i.e. today) in court for saying that women might need to have spaces and services for their safety and dignity.

Rape survivors are having to argue in court that adding one, single single sex group to a plethora of mixed sex rape crisis groups is not transphobic but necessary for the needs of survivors.

All that 'both sides need to have a calm chat about how to resolve this' stuff doesn't fly when women have tried (and are trying!) but have been silenced.

I genuinely don't understand why you would ask this?

Helleofabore explains things very factually. Careful explanations backed up with facts and statistics are the only way to 'take the heat out' of any discussion.

ETA: We rarely (never?) see this on the TRA side

Gosh, a site created for women has members who support women's sex-based rights. Who'd a thunk it?

Pope, I have to strip the euphemisms and the emotionally manipulative terms out of these discussions because, like you, I need to understand just what is an accurate representation of the situation.

'Heat'
Could it be the feeling that results from having to interact with a series of posts that are thoughtful, rational, considered, but which contradict what you are saying?

If that is the case, it explains all those baffling calls, usually addressed to the 'GC' side, to 'take the heat out of the gender debate' when we hadn't put it there in the first place.
I think there may be a special meaning to 'heat', and it isn't literally heat, it's 'what happens when you encounter opposing arguments that are impossible to deal with without reference to feelings rather than facts.'

The phrase 'taking the heat out of the debate' usually means women shut up complaining.

It's never a phrase used to infer that men should stop making demands on women despite this being where the fire was started.

Exactly. There is a marked refusal for many people who claim to believe that TW are in some indefinable way women to actually consider what it is they are even trying to communicate with that phrase.

Are they saying TW are female? If not, what is it that they are claiming they are? How could anyone not be prepared to articulate that? And yet I've barely seen a single attempt, in years on here.

Where is the trans voice here?

I’m hearing complaints that women are not listened to, which is fine but not when it is accompanied by a demand that other voices are not heard.

No debate or discussion is worth a dime without all the people affected having a seat at the table.

You could pop over to the Peggie vs Fife/Upton thread and listen to what Dr Upton has to say today in his evidence.

They've had it. In courts, at employment tribunals, setting policy, sitting at the table with Government....

During the GRR debate, women's groups (or those who aren't under the SG's funding thumb) were ignored. The SG had to be pressured in order to invite the presence (at Stage 3 no less) of the United Nations Special Rapporteur on violence against women and girls

Women are now being heard. The TRA's don't like that. Hence the backlash.

(Edited to add - anyone who is still under the impression that women have been listened to up until now really needs to read Women Won't Wheesht).

but not when it is accompanied by a demand that other voices are not heard

Do you mean women are demanding that trans voices are not heard? I'm just not seeing that.

But I am seeing demands for rational arguments, evidence and understanding of women's position. I'd welcome trans people/supporters having a seat at the table but they need to bring some damn good watertight arguments with them instead of the usual 'transphobia' accusations.

Is was not "exceptional circumstances to cast a shadow over all trans people" Waitwhat23 was pointing out that some peoples personal circumstance disquallify the person.

Wrong Race, specific disability, not of a religion, wrong sex can all be "state of being" factors as to why a individual and a group of individuals can be (lawfull) excluded from a role.

We are finally in a time when there are some women's groups finally getting heard in government. But this is after a very long time of those women's groups being excluded.

There is plenty of transgender representation to government and to organisations making these decisions in the UK right now.

Who is demanding that other voices are not heard? Are you talking about on MN? or in representation to law and policy makers?

Because I have not seen anyone say that 'trans voices' are excluded from either MN or from discussing their needs to law and policy makers or anywhere.

Get orfff our land!!!.......or stay as you are, respectful and welcome.

Yawn. Transphobic. For stating facts. That you can't change sex. And no it isn't even transphobic, no fear of prejudice. We just know the facts and we don't need JK Rowling to state them, because we already know biological facts.

And yes, a big part of wanting to be a real woman is wanting to be pretty, because a big part of femininity is being pretty. Anybody who doesn't think that is taking their natural femininity for granted in my opinion

I’m still stuck on this post. What the ever-loving hell is this???

I am not very feminine. I have less than no interest in being pretty, nor attractive to men (apart from the one individual man in the world that I have lived with for 35 years.) I have given up plucking my chin and just use a razor for the facial hair I have (and hate). I am very fat.

I am not less of a ‘real’ woman - hell, in sheer size, I am more - because I don’t perform femininity. I think it is outrageous of someone to suggest being feminine and pretty and aspiring to be attractive is intrinsically part of being a ‘real’ woman. Am I bloody Pinocchio in this scenario, @SailorSerena ?

That’s the gender oppression our patriarchal society tries to impose on us - which we feminists have been battling for decades.

I can’t ‘feel like a man’ - in drag or otherwise- because that’s literally impossible; I’m female. I could feel like I imagine a man might feel, but that’s just a guess based on my (female) interpretation of what men think and feel.

I can’t feel like a cat or a Christmas tree either.

I am a woman because every cell in my body is female and my body is formed for the production of large gametes and the gestation of offspring. Of which I have three. Needing to shave my chin doesn’t negate any of that.

Sorry to jump back a bit in the discussion, but it really bothered me. (Even with the excellent challenges to it by others)