Mumsnet listed as Anti-Trans

[Hoosemover]

there a list of organisations and Mumsnet is on it. Along with the Equality and Human Rights Commission.

x.com/twisterfilm/status/1888255119449268674?s=61

As far as I can see, people are pointing out what should not be acceptable behaviour.

Has any person stated clearly that no person with a transgender identity should be employed in the sector? Or only that no person with a transgender identity should bypass the legal clause on a job requirement when it is stated that the role is for only female people, and no person with a transgender identity should be presenting themselves as being the sex they are not when people are expecting a person of one sex for either one on one therapy or in a single sex group.

your definition of anti trans is anything that is not affirming or respectful of someones internal identity or of gender ideology as a whole then yes I suppose Mumsnet is anti trans.

Personally I think anyone, or any forum, that does believe in gender ideology must be deeply misogynistic to buy into any part of it. However most, if not all, pro trans posters would vehemently deny they are misogynistic in any way.

So it's a bit of a stalemate situation. Which is why I don't really care about the anti trans accusations.

This.

That’s interesting. Our tortie is very very stupid/bad at basic cat things and the vet said it could be some sort of deficit secondary to an attachment disorder because she lacked a mother (found in a bin as a tiny kitten) but also that torties are renowned for behavioural differences/challenges, hence “naughty tortie”.

Exceptional circumstances?

Funding for rape crisis services, domestic violence services which (primarily) comes from the Scottish Government's Inspiring Scotland fund which is predicated on services not providing single sex groups and services. There's wide spread institutional capture which is harming women.

And it's hardly exceptional. Vancouver Rape Crisis, Brighton Rape Crisis services - these are just two of the higher profile examples. There's services across Scotland who have lost funding for daring to even suggest that single sex services (alongside mixed sex!) might meet their service users needs.

It's anti women to deny this is happening or to hand wave it away as being less important than being 'inclusive'.

In most instances, sex doesn't really matter, and nobody cares. In some instances, it really does - if a trans person presents at hospital HCPs need to know whether to check for sex specific conditions.

Should a trans person be arrested, or stopped at customs, who will conduct a search? Is it up to the trans person? And is that fair to the customs staff/police?

If a trans person goes to prison, which prison will they be sent to?

In any instance where sex matters, people 'presenting as' the opposite sex causes issues.

The basic issue is whether other people are to treat a person according to sex or according to the sex they wish to be. Sex is a protected characteristic, but it also is in some cases an important criteria for the functioning of society. (Changing rooms, shortlists, public toilets are some examples). And in those instances it's sex, not 'gender', that matters.

The rights/needs/wishes of the trans person to be seen as/treated as the opposite sex can't supersede the rights/needs/wishes of others. There has to be a balance of everyone's rights.

You have no idea how I felt.

Telling people how they feel and why it is wrong is the whole problem here.

With respect, I'm not really interested in your feelings, or the feelings of men who identify as women. I don't mean any ill will, but It's a bit self absorbed for people to expect others, who have their own shit going on, to be focused on their identity issues.

I simply don't believe in the concept of an innate "gender identity" that is different from sex, and I don't want men and boys in women's spaces or taking up space in stuff meant to benefit women and girls, a traditionally disadvantaged group. Whatever their motivations. And I have feelings and rights too. That's it.

If you don’t care, why join in the debate?

It’s not very pleasant to go out of your way to tell people that their issues are of no interest to you and do not matter.

Do, please, report anything transphobic.

I haven't seen anything transphobic on MN ie: death and rape threats to trans people, posters saying " I hate trans people " etc... I haven't seen any of it. nada

Please give examples of what you have seen.

If you don’t care, why join in the debate?

I've just said why I care about "the debate". I also think the feelings of others aren't more important than mine. HTH.

So, no. I can feel very confident in saying that a male person saying they live as a female person and feel like a female person is not materially correct.

You can say that they don't know what it is like to live with a female body but you cannot say they don't feel like a female person. You do not know how someone feels as you aren't them. And if you are claiming people can only feel like what they are, you can't possibly understand what it is like to feel transgender as you aren't transgender.

Women with PCOS are women.

"Ugly" women are women.

Hirsuite women are women.

Fat women are women.

Yes they are. But simply stating YOU ARE A WOMAN at someone over and over doesn't actually make them feel like a woman. You need to fix their problems. So stating YOU ARE A MAN at a trans woman over and over isn't going to make them feel like a man is it. We feel how we feel. If feelings were all logical and black and white no one would ever need therapy for anything.

You can say that they don't know what it is like to live with a female body but you cannot say they don't feel like a female person. You do not know how someone feels as you aren't them. And if you are claiming people can only feel like what they are, you can't possibly understand what it is like to feel transgender as you aren't transgender.

This paragraph is contradictory @SailorSerena

Yes they are. But simply stating YOU ARE A WOMAN at someone over and over doesn't actually make them feel like a woman. You need to fix their problems.

I don't need to do anything. They need to accept their own biological sex.

If they need therapy to do so, there's absolutely no shame in that.

So stating YOU ARE A MAN at a trans woman over and over isn't going to make them feel like a man is it.

They are a man by virtue of being a biological male, so what they feel are male feelings, whether or not they have a stereotype-based idea of what "male feelings" should feel like. I don't accept that a male can have female feelings. I simply don't share your ideology.

It is a logical fallacy to make a statement that a male person can 'feel' like a female person.

I don't know what it is like to 'feel transgender' (although I can say that I have suffered from gender dysphoria as a teenager). But that is because I am not a person who claims to be transgender.

Saying "And if you are claiming people can only feel like what they are, you can't possibly understand what it is like to feel transgender as you aren't transgender", doesn't hold together with your first statement, "You can say that they don't know what it is like to live with a female body but you cannot say they don't feel like a female person. You do not know how someone feels as you aren't them."

You are telling people that they simply cannot understand what another person 'feels', while claiming that the impossible is possible and that somehow a male person can 'feel' like a female person.

No. Those male people have conceptualised what a female person must 'feel' like, based on nothing but their own conclusions that have no grounding in material reality, and they have categorised those 'feelings' as being female.

I can most confidently say that what those male people 'feel' is not 'female' because the only possible way to 'feel' female is to have a female body and to negotiate interactions having that female body.

Just because I don't know how that male person 'feels', does not mean that I don't fully understand why that male person cannot 'feel' like a female person. I don't know how they feel, this I agree with, but there is no possibility on earth that that male person 'feels' what it is like to be 'female'. They only can feel what it is like to navigate life in their body, which is male and remains male for their entire life.

Subjective feelings make for very poor laws and no we don't need to, and can't in reality fix everyone's problems.

Millions of people across the world have all kinds of subjective feelings in their own heads that makes them feel bad about themselves. There are no political or legal moves that can neatly fix all of that and it would be idiocy to try.

It is.

But this is where some people get to because they really want to find some way to support the impossible.

I don't really care if you share it or not.

You can't know other people's feelings and it's not other people's job to live in a way that pleases you if they are happy with the way they are living their life and living in a way that pleases you causes them psychological harm.

Just because someone says they 'feel' like something they materially are not does not mean they should be affirmed that their feelings are based on material reality. Or that they should be able to make others believe that they are what they materially aren't.

You can't know other people's feelings

See my other post. It's not relevant what other people may or may not feel. Women's rights and protections are what is relevant to me.

I simply don't believe in the concept of an innate "gender identity" that is different from sex, and I don't want men and boys in women's spaces or taking up space in stuff meant to benefit women and girls, a traditionally disadvantaged group. Whatever their motivations. And I have feelings and rights too. That's it.

This can be interpreted for women

it's not other people's job to live in a way that pleases you

I agree it’s not the role of women to validate men’s feelings. We should stop doing that

But what if the way they are living their life, however happy they are with it, causes other people actual harm?

Can they not be expected to make adjustments and have consideration for those other people? Or are they allowed to do whatever they want?

Everyone’s safety is of equal importance.

Some people will need additional support/adjustments etc to be safe.

If what we have got now isn’t working for any at risk or vulnerable groups, we need to explore other ways of doing things.