NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #7

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 January 2025 and is expected to continue for 2 weeks. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely can be obtained by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse

Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2

Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3

Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4

Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5

Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6

What was already common ground between the two sides at the FWS hearing, though, was that a trans woman without a GRC is just a man, legally speaking. So it's going to be interesting to hear Fife justify its policy.

Place marking, everything read up to here.

Ipad fully charged, MN #7 page open, tribunaltweets open on X.

Im ready for today. Sending massive hugs and thoughts to Sandie as always. We’re right behind you.

Come on NC, let the truth prevail.

I agree.
And I’ve been asking DH about this because although he says that people don’t make eye contact, stay modest etc he didn’t completely understand what I explained about the art of getting into a swimming costume while remaining clothed… So I for one would like to know about the similar (practical) ntricacies for men

I’m anxious about how I’m going to combine work with keeping a weather eye on this thread!

@nauticant could you make occasional posts with headline items so we can just read OP’s posts and get an idea what’s happening? It would be awesome if you could!

A mile has told me that a trans man is using the men's changing room in the theatre dept at my hospital and the men are unhappy.

I have no idea if there is any connection between that and these laminated signs which I noticed in one of the theatre areas when I went round there for something.
Signs around the hospital are generic male / female so these ones caught my eye.

"A mole" that should read

IANAL. But in a court of law, there tends to be a reliance on what the court thinks the makers of the law intended. Assuming the same principle applies to workplace regulations, it should be clear that back in 1992, they intended that the terms men and women mean biological men and women.

Of course even if I'm wrong, and it can include people with a GRC, then it wouldn't seem to apply in this case because it doesn't seem that Dr U has a GRC. Perhaps Naomi Cunningham will ask him.

What was already common ground between the two sides at the FWS hearing, though, was that a trans woman without a GRC is just a man, legally speaking. So it's going to be interesting to hear Fife justify its policy.

My guess is that they will say they assumed he had one, especially since he talked about going into women's changing rooms in previous jobs without being questioned.

Totally- I was thinking earlier that I always wear a skirt on changing occasions- even going for a smear- because of the ‘stage curtain’ capacity for discretion! 😁

Good signs!

Yes, the fact he thought Sandie must be still in the changing room because she wanted to ambush him. Not to get changed. Because it's all about him. When, if I've got incidents right, she couldn't leave as she normally would because she needed to sort her period related situation out. And she needed him to bugger off first. So he was massively inconviencing her and making her situation worse, all while telling her he had every right to be there.

He's not seen Sandie's evidence has he? Am I correct he can't see / know anything until he's given evidence?

I don't normally watch such trials but I am now, thank the lord for a WFH job so I can have this in the background foreground

Ok peeps - can anyone here set up one of those websites where you put in your details / ticks boxes and it automatically drafts you an email for your MP?

Im thinking along the lines of - I’m a biological woman who works as. … , has … kids, volunteers as …. and does x y z to contribute to our society. I generally don’t follow the details of law making because that’s your job as an MP.

While cooking the dinner, doing the school run and doing 2 loads of washing, the terrible situation of Sandie Peggie in Fife came to my attention. I’ve now discovered that I can no longer expect privacy and dignity in a female only changing room because MPs have been complete inept and placed the desire to be accepted of a small (but certainly vulnerable) group over and above the basic needs of 51% of the population.

Can you please explain what will be done to remedy this IMMEDIATELY!

yours
knotty

I’m not surprised they are unhappy. I know my husband would be uncomfortable.

But in this instance they have the power, so the repercussions will be different. No way would a man be suspended for questioning a women in his changing room. With men in women’s spaces, the power balance is in the opposite direction so in Fife, Upton held all the cards.

It would be so easy to say "women's changing room....gender neutral changing rooms can be found at...."

Obviously we still don't want men in women's spaces, but a sign like that would at least be a start, offering a third space option.

Yes I agree. I think the problem we have now though, is that even if everyone agrees that about the 1992 workplace regulations, we’ve since had other legislation which confuses things, such as the GRA and it’s ’for all purposes’ wording. Of course that only applies where a GRC has been awarded which doesn’t seem to be the case here, so it’ll be interesting to hear the submissions on that. And the FWS case should offer some much needed clarity on the position for people with GRCs.

In respect to the claim of cat-calling; how common is that these days? I am too old to be noticed but I haven't heard any cat-calling for years. Maybe I'm just in the wrong/right places (depending on viewpoint) but he has been identifying as a woman for 3 years and yet it's happened to him multiple times?!

Morning all.
I’ve had a hearty breakfast, briefed the support animals that their presence is required, acquired a mini kettle for the office, a selection of teas and snacks.
Ready.

What exactly did DU think was going to happen to him in the male changing rooms at the hospital after he presented as female? Surely they are inclusive and welcoming and professional NHS employees? Is he saying that all his male colleagues might have reacted badly in someway, so much so that he had to take refuge in the female changing room?

I would love NC to unpack this. I would especially like to hear what was the perceived safety risk that she felt SP posed when he found himself alone in the CR with her.

I'm not sure that this is a line of questioning NC will follow. Her approach might be to focus on facts, policies and procedures.

What time are we due to start today please?

An hour to go. Will the judge turn up on time. Will Dr Upton show up?

I'm hoping she will at least ask him how many people he had notes on and if any of them were male.

I have other things to do today, drat.

Checking in for this morning. Should be an interesting one.

https://thecritic.co.uk/the-truth-about-work-single-sex-spaces-and-the-law/

"The 1992 Regulations are strict. There is no flex in them. NHS Fife is under an obligation to provide separate male and female changing facilities for staff. Providing a changing facility labelled “female only” while engaging in a practice of allowing a man to use it is not providing separate male and female changing facilities. "

Does anyone know if the link for today will be the same one used for last weeks sessions or if we need to request a new one?