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Original poster

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #7

1000 replies

nauticant · 08/02/2025 15:40

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 January 2025 and is expected to continue for 2 weeks. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely can be obtained by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse

Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2

Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3

Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4

Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5

Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6

OP posts:
Thread gallery
37
KnottyAuty · 09/02/2025 11:37

CheekySnake · 09/02/2025 11:34

There was a moment on Friday, when NC talked about the allegations of poor patient care and how serious this is when his father went bright red and there was an immediate and noticeable shift in posture. Watching it made me think that he'd just had a major 'oh shit' moment as he realised that his son might not actually be the victim in this situation.

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That is why it is so important to be able to watch proceedings. I'm gutted I missed this bit as had to do some actual work. Although usually you wouldn't get to see a parent's reaction like this in an ET because they would be seated in the observer's part of the room - rather than this new category of seating for the support posse

Harassedevictee · 09/02/2025 11:37

@NotMaroonButRaspberry Love your user name
Sorry I'm not sure I understand all of this - how would postponing be to allow justice for DU?

IANAL but there is something called natural justice, if say the newly disclosed documents reveal DU was less than transparent with the hospital, the hospital may decide DU needs to get their own legal advice and team. There is no way DU (or anyone) can reasonably get that part way through giving evidence. Remember DU is under oath and cannot discuss their evidence making getting legal advice challenging to say the least.

On Friday when the ET stopped for lunch the judge said

J We will return at 2pm to discuss these issues but you wont be giving evidence. I need to remind you that you cannot discuss the case DU, but you may need to discuss any new paperwork with JR and I leave it to JRs judgement that you

J remain within the proper boundaries of what you discuss with her. But you won't be giving evidence today. You may remain in court DU to listen to 2pm discussion, counsel please say if this needs extending, or otherwise return on Monday.

FallenSloppyDead · 09/02/2025 11:37

Boiledbeetle · 09/02/2025 09:58

I, a five foot six woman, have just measured from my shoulder to my finger tips. It's 70 cm for me so if I was to properly wave at someone I'd be extending my arm right smack bang into the face or body of someone stood 50cm away from me.

Of course if it was a Mr Darcy wave that would not hit the person I was waving to stood right next to me.

(The chair I'm currently sat on is over 50 cm wide.)

If he truly was only half a metre away whilst she was walking and talking with a colleague that he'd sent off to find Sandie/speak to Sandie there was no need to wave to her, unless to be a passive aggressive arsehole.

Hang on...I thought you were a beetle 🤔

KnottyAuty · 09/02/2025 11:39

Mayaisashero · 09/02/2025 11:32

This is very interesting and makes sense. I'd really like at some point some men to step up and have a protest in the mislabelled 'women's' (actually mixed sex) once the men with lady feelings have been let in - of course giving all the women due warning - UNLIKE NHS FIFE DID.

It's definitely sex discrimination against all the other men and it's about time they realised that the good men stay out so the bad men stand out doesn't work when you lose your job for pointing out men in women's spaces. So they're not being good men by staying out any more. It would be nice for them to stand up for women and girls, en masse preferably.

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I do wonder how they decide on a ‘case by case’ basis.

Well they wait to see which employees go into the female CR and then the let them - "case by case" - see?

FallenSloppyDead · 09/02/2025 11:39

When anyone waves that close to me I assume they are waving at someone behind me that has just come into view. I would never wave back

oldwomanwhoruns · 09/02/2025 11:43

KnottyAuty · 09/02/2025 11:39

I do wonder how they decide on a ‘case by case’ basis.

Well they wait to see which employees go into the female CR and then the let them - "case by case" - see?

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Perhaps they have to check if they are wommaning well enough? Heels, lipstick, tights, that sort of thing?

TriesNotToBeCynical · 09/02/2025 11:44

Harassedevictee · 09/02/2025 11:07

Given that JR is representing both respondents I would expect NHS Fife possibly with DUs own medical indemnity.

The respondents case as I understand it is that DU abided by the hospitals policies in using the CR, made complaints of professional misconduct in line with policies and was the victim of bullying and discrimination. As an employer they appear to have investigated and found DU acted correctly and was subject to bullying and discrimination by another employee. Under vicarious liability they need to support the victim DU.

This is why the failure to disclose the first investigation and DUs failure to disclose BMA correspondence is so important for DU. If DU was not 100% honest with the hospital in both lodging the complaints and during the investigation, DU then potentially creates for the hospital vicarious liability in favour of SP - they failed to investigate properly or didn’t question DU or SP to get all the facts/evidence and made poor decisions.

This could see DU scrabbling to find and fund their own legal representation.

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The only automatic NHS indemnity for employees is for clinical negligence claims. I note your view that the NHS body has power to indemnify employees against other claims, and that you are much more likely to be right than me!

Madcats · 09/02/2025 11:46

Just a reminder that the Uptons shouldn't have heard anything about SP's evidence and cross-examination.

I'm not sure that I'd like to be in their shoes.

Harassedevictee · 09/02/2025 11:47

@TriesNotToBeCynical I am just assuming based on the joint legal team and that DUs evidence supports the hospitals suspension, investigation findings and accusations of professional misconduct.

KnottyAuty · 09/02/2025 11:48

FallenSloppyDead · 09/02/2025 11:39

When anyone waves that close to me I assume they are waving at someone behind me that has just come into view. I would never wave back

We can all get caught up on analysing the 2 incidents which Dr U decided were potentially putting patients at risk - but what about all the other times they worked together? SP's evidence in tribunal mentioned their very first professional encounter on Halloween 2023 - very serious case - anaphylaxis of a child - she said they worked well together from her POV. Presumably he did too - other there would have been a note made in the black book because this was after her "unusual" behaviour standing outside the CR on 1 occasion

SP was a senior nurse who acted in a coordinating role between Drs and nurses. Dr was full time. She was 2 nights a week. How many times were they on shift together between his arrival at The Vic in Aug 2023 and the "hate incident" on 24th Dec 2023? How many of those times did he have nothing to put in his notes?

KnottyAuty · 09/02/2025 11:49

oldwomanwhoruns · 09/02/2025 11:43

Perhaps they have to check if they are wommaning well enough? Heels, lipstick, tights, that sort of thing?

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Nah - because the laws don't apply to NHS Fife - they upskirt all new wimmin employees on the way in

RethinkingLife · 09/02/2025 11:49

Mayaisashero · 09/02/2025 11:32

This is very interesting and makes sense. I'd really like at some point some men to step up and have a protest in the mislabelled 'women's' (actually mixed sex) once the men with lady feelings have been let in - of course giving all the women due warning - UNLIKE NHS FIFE DID.

It's definitely sex discrimination against all the other men and it's about time they realised that the good men stay out so the bad men stand out doesn't work when you lose your job for pointing out men in women's spaces. So they're not being good men by staying out any more. It would be nice for them to stand up for women and girls, en masse preferably.

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As a current cartoon caption on TwiX says:

If women don't require single sex spaces to be safe from men, why do transwomen need access to women's single sex spaces to be safe from men?
https://x.com/velvethammer/status/1887972506172064239

x.com

https://x.com/velvethammer/status/1887972506172064239

KnottyAuty · 09/02/2025 11:51

RethinkingLife · 09/02/2025 11:49

As a current cartoon caption on TwiX says:

If women don't require single sex spaces to be safe from men, why do transwomen need access to women's single sex spaces to be safe from men?
https://x.com/velvethammer/status/1887972506172064239

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I'd like one of those T shirts in a size 12 please

Harassedevictee · 09/02/2025 11:52

In typing my last couple of posts I realised NCs timing is superb. DU has submitted a witness statement, started giving evidence, been questioned by JR but not started cross examination.

Getting additional disclosure documents now means DU can’t retract his witness statement or the evidence already given to the ET panel. I would not want to be cross examined by NC if there is anything contradictory in DUs disclosure.

WeMeetInFairIthilien · 09/02/2025 11:53

Justabaker · 09/02/2025 10:22

Could not find it......

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Sir Scallywag and the battle for Stinky Bottom.

Appropriately, all about a golden sausage 🤣

TriesNotToBeCynical · 09/02/2025 12:02

Mayaisashero · 09/02/2025 11:32

This is very interesting and makes sense. I'd really like at some point some men to step up and have a protest in the mislabelled 'women's' (actually mixed sex) once the men with lady feelings have been let in - of course giving all the women due warning - UNLIKE NHS FIFE DID.

It's definitely sex discrimination against all the other men and it's about time they realised that the good men stay out so the bad men stand out doesn't work when you lose your job for pointing out men in women's spaces. So they're not being good men by staying out any more. It would be nice for them to stand up for women and girls, en masse preferably.

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I actually agree with you. But, while women obviously have a legitimate interest in opposing men being in their space apart from any possible personal dislike of trans individuals, men supporting them can be more easily spun as pure transphobia. I do see the dilemma of male staff here.

hoteltango · 09/02/2025 12:03

@RoyalCorgi

The thread about the kidney patients was by:
https://x.com/DearRebelAda/status/1888310387067523457

It appeared in my timeline via Sonya Douglas who said:
https://x.com/SonyaDouglas/status/1888362114705731645
Did you know that, in almost all countries, the majority of living kidney donors are women, while the majority of recipients are men - even tho kidney disease is more prevalent in women?

x.com

https://x.com/DearRebelAda/status/1888310387067523457

AnnaMagnani · 09/02/2025 12:05

wobblyweewoman · 09/02/2025 11:21

Imagine being Upton's parents? Someone suggested they look like recently retired GPs. They cannot actually view their entitled son as a woman. They must be mortified by his behaviour.

I believe Dr Upton's father has been identified on Twitter/X as Head of Libraries at the University of Edinburgh.

OhBuggerandArse · 09/02/2025 12:05

Tmpnamenb · 09/02/2025 11:30

On the last thread someone stated that mum is Clergy, Dad works for Edinburgh university in the library. I forget in which role.

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He's the head of the library and collections. A big job, with significant professional responsibilities involved. And therefore ultimately in charge of this initiative, even if not directly involved: libraryblogs.is.ed.ac.uk/blog/tag/queering-the-archive/

RethinkingLife · 09/02/2025 12:05

CheekySnake · 09/02/2025 11:34

There was a moment on Friday, when NC talked about the allegations of poor patient care and how serious this is when his father went bright red and there was an immediate and noticeable shift in posture. Watching it made me think that he'd just had a major 'oh shit' moment as he realised that his son might not actually be the victim in this situation.

Show quote history

Equally, the poor chap might have haemorrhoids…

I'm no fan of body language interpretation of evidence or demeanours even when The Behavior Panel does it. (DOI: I still find it difficult to accept most aspects of this, even if the panel comprises an actor/advisor, 2 enhanced interrogation experts, and whatever the 4th is.)

https://www.youtube.com/@TheBehaviorPanel

Original poster
nauticant · 09/02/2025 12:05

RoyalCorgi · 09/02/2025 10:06

Sonia's article is excellent, and explains the issue really clearly.

As always in these tribunals, I'm struck by the fact that the hospital has decided to press on even though it is clearly in the wrong, both legally and morally, and that it also has absolutely no idea that public opinion is overwhelmingly against it. Presumably that is because NHS management is so ideologically captured that they imagine ordinary people think the same way they do. (This seemed the case with all the respondents in these cases: CGD in the Forstater case, Garden Court Chambers, Social Work England, Open University etc. They all seemed startled to discover that their view that men can be women wasn't universally shared.)

A slightly side issue, but I saw a tweet this morning about a case where a patient recovering from a kidney transplant, who should have been given a single room, was instead put on a public ward because the single room was given to a trans-identifying male for his privacy. Frustratingly, I can't remember the name of the account so can't find it. Anyone else see it?

I'm trying to catch up with this thread, I'm behind, but in case no one's replied, there's this:

https://x.com/DearRebelAda/status/1888324146813100167

OP posts:
Theuniversalshere1 · 09/02/2025 12:08

oldwomanwhoruns · 09/02/2025 11:43

Perhaps they have to check if they are wommaning well enough? Heels, lipstick, tights, that sort of thing?

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I never wear any of those... hahaha.

Justabaker · 09/02/2025 12:08

Harassedevictee · 09/02/2025 11:52

In typing my last couple of posts I realised NCs timing is superb. DU has submitted a witness statement, started giving evidence, been questioned by JR but not started cross examination.

Getting additional disclosure documents now means DU can’t retract his witness statement or the evidence already given to the ET panel. I would not want to be cross examined by NC if there is anything contradictory in DUs disclosure.

Scottish tribunals are different. DU will not have done a written witness statement. Witness give 'evidence in chief' lead by their barrister and then cross examination by the other side. He has now given his evidence and the documents that they are desperately looking for now is about the various complaints, etc. So that his account can be questioned.

AnnaMagnani · 09/02/2025 12:08

Oh my lord, that 'Queering the Archive' project is something else.

Seems the whole Upton family are experts at wasting public funds.

TimeForATerf · 09/02/2025 12:11

Tmpnamenb · 09/02/2025 11:30

On the last thread someone stated that mum is Clergy, Dad works for Edinburgh university in the library. I forget in which role.

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I saw this on X. The father’s LinkedIn profile does indeed match the photograph of a middle-aged man supporting DU into court. He is the Director of Library and University Collections (?) at UofE. So a senior position presumably.

I also saw the reference to the mother as being clergy but the name given for her came up as being married to another clergyman so I’m not sure if that is correct.

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