NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #7

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 January 2025 and is expected to continue for 2 weeks. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely can be obtained by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse

Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2

Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3

Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4

Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5

Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6

@Justabaker Here are the most recent CNORIS accounts. I am not 100% certain that they cover employer liability claims, but the chart on page 10 (graph 4) shows a fairly hefty number of "Employee claims":
https://www.nss.nhs.scot/media/4788/cnoris-annual-report-2022-2023.pdf

Re: Observer The Sonia Sodha piece is so strong that I'm impressed that it got through the lawyers. I note Searle's flying monkey | drama llama role received a dishonourable mention. It will be interesting to learn more about that email and Searle's role in 'supporting' Upton to write the Datix of shame (and its content).

Re: Scotsman
Cole-Hamilton dedicated his vote in favour of self-ID to a trans woman with a history of posting violent images and threatening messages online.

So, SP is held accountable for her husband's SM posts. She is branded as a Trump supporter in leading UK MSM. But, a politician does this in tribute to someone with that history and that's grand.

Love the end of that article

"When feminist campaigners against self-ID welcome a new ally, they say that person has been “peaked”, that they’ve learned so much about the dangers of gender ideology they feel compelled to oppose it.

I wonder whether the case of Sandie Peggie has peaked Scotland."

This sentence from the Scotsman article stood out for me: "You will have your own opinion, I’m sure, over whose feelings should have carried greater weight: Those of the middle-aged woman who felt uncomfortable undressing, during a heavy period, in front of someone born male or those of the person who recently declared herself a woman after spending most of her adult life as a man."

@Justabaker forget that NHS Resolution is England only https://resolution.nhs.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/FOI_5444_Claims-in-Scotland.pdf

Whilst I have been looking I see that @Madcats @anyolddinosaur @AAT65 have found the answer.

That Scotsman article is also excellent. Not a Scot so not clued up on the slants of the various media outlets; is this the sort of take you'd expect from this journalist in this paper, or a development?

The application to the court for anonymity was to include Dr Searle. No other witnesses were named in the request. Suggests some nervousness about having the public take a view on her actions in the case.

Nope - it won't be stopping at the Scottish border....

It is possible that Dr Upton is funded by a medical defence organisation (private or mutual insurance). It is also possible that if the NHS is funding him they are misusing public funds.

i have been away from Scotland for many years and still am surprised when people look blankly at me when I say something.

outwith is part of my vocabulary, and it just makes so much sense to use it when I do. It’s an instinctive thing more than deliberate.

It may not have peaked Scotland - but it certainly seems to have peaked a reporter.

I'm curious about some of the people involved. Dr Kate Elizabeth Searle was born in 1981 in Edinburgh, graduated from University of Edinburgh in 2004 and is now registered as a clinical supervisor. Her role in a&e is Deputy Clinical Lead, Patient Safety lead, workforce lead.

The workforce lead ought to have some training in/ understanding of employment law.

I've been musing on the role of lawyers in all of this. A lawyer's first duty is to the court. As an in-house lawyer that duty may require you to disclose the shortcomings of a 'client' who is also your employer. Not a comfortable position to be in.

I watched a lot of the Post Office enquiry. During the evidence of one senior lawyer it was clear that the tension between those duties to the court and her employer caused her to quit.

Yes, and more accurate too. The issue is not someone's personal identity or their 'trans status', but their sex - that matters.

The thing is, I would feel totally safe going and changing in the men's changing rooms at work or using their toilets. I have no concerns at all about my safety in what is a fairly controlled environment.

I of course wouldn't, because the men wouldn't feel comfortable with it, because neither I nor they want to see each other partially undressed, and because it doesn't have the facilities I need (sanitary bins).

Some eejit mentioned on r/ukbutonlyallowedifyouaretransorally that this person was concerned a women under that regulation because their brain was that of a woman.

unfortunately on r/uk no one can argue against it because you are only allowed to comment if you 100% affirm trans identifying males.

(I don’t have a Reddit account because of the extreme anti women ethos of the site)

I’ve just clicked on the link to this article and the headline now says “male colleague”, not “trans colleague.” Has it been corrected since this link was posted?

Thanks to @Waitwhat23 for this

JR - she said you were a man, asked about chromosomes and prisons, how did you feel?
DU - awful, really really upset. I've never been spoken
DU - to like that. It was awful to be compared to someone like that. Someone casting aspersions on my people. I was upset and afraid actually I didn't know what it would mean going forward, would have to raise it but just wanted to extricate myself.
JR - why were you afraid?
DU - away from others, unlikely to be overheard, comparing you to someone who has committed terrible acts and they are confronting you and saying things about your community I was afraid. It was hurtful

I will keep my observations about Uptons feigned offence taken for another time, all for show. The striking terminology he uses refers to "(his) community" i.e. males identifying as trans. That community is not that of women - it is a distinctly separate community, and one he identifies with.

Anyone else picked up on this?

I see there are quite a few comments already under the Scotsman article but I can’t read them without registering for an account. Does anyone have sight of them? Are they broadly in support?

Do I see a Tshirt printing fundraising opportunity for the Scottish Society of Rheumatology and proxy support for the Peggie family?

FWR MNer @GrimbutGerbil did the ones for Aston (proud owner of more than I care to say).

https://grimut-gerbils.teemill.com/

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5068974-aston-university-gerbil-merch-thread

But based on the evidence/court docs Dr U was fearful about violence against TW

I inferred that this played a part in Dr U's decision to use the female CR but this hasn't been explore in the hearing so far

Interesting - the URL of the article says trans confirming that it was later edited to say male

❤ £10,000 ❤

https://alexander-herschell-bell.muchloved.com/

Given that JR is representing both respondents I would expect NHS Fife possibly with DUs own medical indemnity.

The respondents case as I understand it is that DU abided by the hospitals policies in using the CR, made complaints of professional misconduct in line with policies and was the victim of bullying and discrimination. As an employer they appear to have investigated and found DU acted correctly and was subject to bullying and discrimination by another employee. Under vicarious liability they need to support the victim DU.

This is why the failure to disclose the first investigation and DUs failure to disclose BMA correspondence is so important for DU. If DU was not 100% honest with the hospital in both lodging the complaints and during the investigation, DU then potentially creates for the hospital vicarious liability in favour of SP - they failed to investigate properly or didn’t question DU or SP to get all the facts/evidence and made poor decisions.

This could see DU scrabbling to find and fund their own legal representation.

Fife tried so hard to keep everything in this tribunal from the public. They knew how bad it would all look, and we haven't even seen the documents they've been trying to hide. I can't wait for tomorrow.