Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #5

1000 replies

nauticant · 06/02/2025 17:34

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 January 2025 and is expected to continue for 2 weeks. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely can be obtained by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse

Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2

Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3

Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4

OP posts:
Thread gallery
14
Swashbuckled · 06/02/2025 22:43

When reading, I’d had the same thought that (I think) another couple of posters shared.

I could imagine he was gently encouraged to proceed with his complaints processes because the process could offer an easier way to get rid of him. He does seem to be a bit of a liability…

Scout2016 · 06/02/2025 22:45

SameyMcNameChange · 06/02/2025 22:30

But the thing is, if 'womanhood' is a state of mind, or 'someone who feels like a woman' then how does that work when a person has dementia? Or is in a coma? Or is asleep?

It just doesn't make sense.

Show quote history

I'm sure I have heard of people who transitioned in the old school transsexual sense, then developed dementia and were very confused and distressed by their bodies. If anyone else knows what I might have heard / read I'd be interested to read /listen again.

Lovelyview · 06/02/2025 22:50

Manxexile · 06/02/2025 22:30

So is that para 24 here: The Workplace (Health, Safety and Welfare) Regulations 1992 ?

"Facilities for changing clothing

24.—(1) Suitable and sufficient facilities shall be provided for any person at work in the workplace to change clothing in all cases where—
(a)the person has to wear special clothing for the purpose of work; and
(b)the person can not, for reasons of health or propriety, be expected to change in another room.
(2) Without prejudice to the generality of paragraph (1), the facilities mentioned in that paragraph shall not be suitable unless they include separate facilities for, or separate use of facilities by, men and women where necessary for reasons of propriety and the facilities are easily accessible, of sufficient capacity and provided with seating"

Edited
Show quote history

Yes. But now you've posted it I realise that people who think men can be women would have no problem letting a man in a women's changing room if he says the magic words (I'm a woman).

larklane17 · 06/02/2025 22:52

@Scout2016
Was it this?
"Trans people who have transitioned (or are in the process of doing so) may not remember that they have started or been through this process. If they have a partner or friend who is transitioning, they may also forget this"
(Continues)
https://www.alzheimers.org.uk/get-support/help-dementia-care/lgbtq-dementia-memory-problems

Memory problems LGBTQ+ people with dementia may experience

Advice and practical tips for supporting an LGBTQ+ person with dementia who is experiencing memory problems. 

https://www.alzheimers.org.uk/get-support/help-dementia-care/lgbtq-dementia-memory-problems

Hermyknee · 06/02/2025 22:52

I can promise my late great uncle (with dementia) would have told the dr exactly what he thought he was. All filters were off and he said it as he saw it.

ChimpanzeeThatMonkeyNews · 06/02/2025 22:53

That might have been Elaine Miller aka @GussieGrips on TwiX.

She was interviewed by Graham Linehan a couple of years ago.

https://www.youtube.com/live/dtlNihG6zNM?si=fzMhiFVM6PbiN_1X

Manxexile · 06/02/2025 22:59

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Scout2016 · 06/02/2025 22:59

@ChimpanzeeThatMonkeyNews and @larklane17 yes it was Elaine Miller, but other looks interesting too, thank you.

murasaki · 06/02/2025 22:59

Hermyknee · 06/02/2025 22:52

I can promise my late great uncle (with dementia) would have told the dr exactly what he thought he was. All filters were off and he said it as he saw it.

0h yes, both my grandparents that I knew had lost all filters by the end, not that they had many to begin with , and would definitely have offended Dr Upton. Not intending to, but by saying what they saw.

Chrysanthemum5 · 06/02/2025 23:00

There is a trans woman on Twitter who talks about how his mum has dementia and every time he sees his mum he insists on explaining that he's a woman etc and won't let up until she accepts it.

That to me is classic male privilege

KnottyAuty · 06/02/2025 23:00

Scout2016 · 06/02/2025 22:40

He expects everyone to address him personally at every opportunity doesn't he? Main Character Syndrome.

I think it will take a while to dawn on him that it's not going well tomorrow, then panic attack or feinting. I think he will show up because he won't have any awareness of what a creep he came across today with all him note taking, and he won't want to let His People down. But then reality will bite.

I hope they ask more about his note taking. Who else he took notes on, did he make notes of positive interactions, how many notes did he make in general and how long he spent doing it. I can't believe he only made notes about Sandie, there will have been others. We know other nurses waited outside as well, so they must have been noted too, and if not why not?

Show quote history

The pre-emptive notes thing is definitely unusual. Can you imagine being Dr U’s colleague and realising that there may have been notes kept about you too.. then having face them at work

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 06/02/2025 23:02

Chrysanthemum5 · 06/02/2025 23:00

There is a trans woman on Twitter who talks about how his mum has dementia and every time he sees his mum he insists on explaining that he's a woman etc and won't let up until she accepts it.

That to me is classic male privilege

Coercive abuse of a vulnerable person that is legally permitted.

That poor woman who is already unsure of her own mind and what's what now is being gaslit. It must be terribly confusing and frightening for her.

NotMaroonButRaspberry · 06/02/2025 23:03

KnottyAuty · 06/02/2025 23:00

The pre-emptive notes thing is definitely unusual. Can you imagine being Dr U’s colleague and realising that there may have been notes kept about you too.. then having face them at work

Show quote history

That would be a very good question for NC to ask wouldn't it?

  • Did you also make notes of the others who stood in the corridor with SP?!
  • If yes, how many, when did you start and when did you stop making notes about those individuals, and why?
  • If no, why did you single out SP alone for note taking when by your own report there were others who behaved exactly as she did.
Scout2016 · 06/02/2025 23:04

Chrysanthemum5 · 06/02/2025 23:00

There is a trans woman on Twitter who talks about how his mum has dementia and every time he sees his mum he insists on explaining that he's a woman etc and won't let up until she accepts it.

That to me is classic male privilege

That's abusive. Her grasp on reality is going and he insists on undermining something she knows that is actually true?

murasaki · 06/02/2025 23:04

I really hope he shows up tomorrow, but I wouldn't put money on it. He's a coward and a bully.

Swashbuckled · 06/02/2025 23:05

murasaki · 06/02/2025 23:04

I really hope he shows up tomorrow, but I wouldn't put money on it. He's a coward and a bully.

I can't work out which I'd prefer, or which would be better for the case...

NotAGentleReminder · 06/02/2025 23:06

Chrysanthemum5 · 06/02/2025 23:00

There is a trans woman on Twitter who talks about how his mum has dementia and every time he sees his mum he insists on explaining that he's a woman etc and won't let up until she accepts it.

That to me is classic male privilege

That to me is abuse

Manxexile · 06/02/2025 23:06

Lovelyview · 06/02/2025 22:50

Yes. But now you've posted it I realise that people who think men can be women would have no problem letting a man in a women's changing room if he says the magic words (I'm a woman).

Show quote history

Yeah. I thought that too after I'd posted it.

Unfortunately the interpretation section doesn't give a definition of the words men and women. I assume that whenever it was drafted it was simply taken for granted that the two terms could only refer to biological sex.

I think any court or tribunal would be hard pressed to extend it to self-identifying though. It was obviously the intention of the regulations that biological men and women should have separate toilet, washing and changing facilities based on their biological sex and not based on how they felt

Bannedontherun · 06/02/2025 23:06

On a none legal note i know for sure he will be fucked at his workplace, he has no witnesses from the floor so to speak just managers.

His colleagues will not be able to resist looking up the case and will by virtue of gossip be well aware of his note taking habits.

He has shat on his own doorstep.

those on his shifts are gonna give him a wide berth.

You reap what you sow.

NotAtMyAge · 06/02/2025 23:08

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 06/02/2025 19:40

Michael Foran is worth a follow on twitter. He says that:

Dr Upton has said that the manager was not aware of any policies in relation to toilet or changing room use but because of the female identity, Upton should use the women’s. The relevant rules here aren’t policies they are the rules contained in the Workplace Regulations 1992.

These regulations are statutory, an incorporation of EU law and until 01 Jan 2024 took priority over domestic legislation. Now they are assimilated EU law and all legislation should, so far as possible, be interpreted compatibly with them.

The relevant rule in Workplace (Health, Safety, and Wellbeing) Regulations 1992 are a strict requirement to provide male and female changing areas where employment requires one to change clothing. NHS policies incompatible with these regulations are unlawful.

This is different from Schedule 3 of the Equality Act - provision of separate sex services to the public. The Schedule 3 exceptions don’t apply in the workplace. They are permissible but not mandatory. The 1992 regs are mandatory - there is [no scope] for justification for breach.

This is very illuminating. I wonder if it will be raised before the tribunal?

murasaki · 06/02/2025 23:08

Swashbuckled · 06/02/2025 23:05

I can't work out which I'd prefer, or which would be better for the case...

Show quote history

Yes, but I do want to see NC do her thing. Discounting his entire evidence would be good, but I feel she can easily out do him.

Seacatt · 06/02/2025 23:09

KnottyAuty · 06/02/2025 22:35

That's a link. Maybe try putting just this into the address field of the email?
[email protected]

Show quote history

Thank you, I tried that, it didn't work either.

murasaki · 06/02/2025 23:10

Boiledbeetle · 06/02/2025 23:09

It's a big show of support for Sandie and her family that have been forced through this.

Manxexile · 06/02/2025 23:10

Seacatt · 06/02/2025 23:09

Thank you, I tried that, it didn't work either.

Show quote history

That ought to work. It's what I used, although I had to try twice

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

Join Mumsnet Log In
This thread is not accepting new messages.