Can we talk about bisexuality?

[Pluvia]

Just that really. I'm a lesbian, one of a number seeking to rebuild new lesbian and LGB networks after our established communities and events and hang-outs and culture have been trashed by the TQIA+ brigade.

Lesbians and gay men are feeling really beleaguered. We've seen almost every sphere of gay and lesbian life infiltrated by 'queer', trans and spicy straight people all using the events and groups we've founded for their own purposes — mainly of validation. Pride has been taken over by the T. Our cafes, pubs, bars, all gone.

I think a significant number of gay and lesbian activists are finding it increasingly difficult to work out where bisexuality fits into all this. I'm in a number of different LGB groups and this issue has started to crop up in them. People who join describing themselves as bisexual and wanting to get involved in helping rebuild their local LGB communities turn out to be in long-term, stable heterosexual relationships. Some of them for 20+ years. Some bi people in such relationships want to involve their straight partners on the basis that although the partner is straight, they are in relationship with a bi person who isn't — but who, to the outside world, looks straight.

Does it matter? Well, if you're in a heterosexual relationship you're unlikely to experience the everyday (usually minor) moments that most of us who are out still encounter. Things like the need to come out regularly to people who assume that we're in straight relationships, the slight but still palpable 'othering' that sometimes comes when people realise they're talking to someone who isn't just like them. Sometimes it's much more pointed. And if we hold, say, an LGB club night, so that LGB people can associate without the straight gaze, should we allow bisexuals to bring their straight partners? Doesn't that negate the intention of the event?

Bisexual people who are living in a heterosexual relationship have the security of being undercover. They may not see it like that, of course, but they pass as straight. I'm pretty sure that one of the bi women who's involved in one of the groups I'm in is a straight woman who bases her bisexual identity on the fact that she had a relationship with a woman while at university, many years ago.

I don't know if there's a solution to this. I think lesbians and gay men are much more cautious around the dangers of self-ID and identity politics than they ever were. How are other groups handling this?

My very first experience talking to lesbians, at a bus station, after London Pride 1999. One had a t-shirt that said "DIKE Just Do Her" and I complimented it because it was funny and apt.

Can you at least name names? Were they on Twitter or elsewhere? You'll understand, I hope, that particularly in this day and age it's not unreasonable to ask for evidence to support such allegations.

My very first experience talking to lesbians, at a bus station, after London Pride 1999. One had a t-shirt that said "DIKE Just Do Her" and I complimented it because it was funny and apt.

Something missing from this post? Not sure I understand.

At work - will get back to you later. On Twitter. Including the LGB Alliance account itself at times I seem to recall, but definitely in replies to that account.

So... guessing that it wasn't as easy to find pejorative tweets from LGB Alliance leaders/members/committee as expected.

I note that today Labour LGB was launched by Labour members, as an alternative to LGBT+ Labour.
https://x.com/LabourLGB

Hello! A reminder to any bisexual women on this thread who are looking for a support and social group for bi women who understand that humans come in two sexes - drop me a message. 😊

I'm just confirming that I've just chatted to @TheColourOutOfSpace - it's great she's getting together a group of bisexual women, I encourage anyone else to get in touch if you'd like a space of our own!

Went to a group today and there were more bi women with husbands than lesbians. So no idea why you all think you are not welcome.

Well you don't seem to want them there @JoyousGreyOrca. I don't disagree with you about bringing male partners, but this is the point that is being made, although groups say in theory that they are for bisexual women, lesbians don't want us there. It might be the spicy straight type bisexual women that lesbians particularly object to, but it affects all of us.

@KnutsfordCityLimits Can you just for a moment imagine what it might be like to be a lesbian, living in a hetero world and possibly quite isolated, looking forward to a lesbian event at the weekend to meet other female-focussed women who understand what it's like to be outside society's norms, only to find that half the women there have husbands? What do the bi women gain from the experience? What do lesbian women lose from it?

I'm bi and I must admit I often feel unwelcome amongst lesbians. Trying to on line date on lesbian sites and I have transwomen really pushing to meet up or talk when I'm not interested. Very male pushy attitude. Then actual lesbians saying they only want to date lesbians. No one is interested in me except men with kink, or so it feels.

But I remember a good lesbian friend who dated a bi women who was really hurt when that woman went back to men. She spoke about feeling like an experiment and used. I imagine that's a contributing factor for why some lesbians won't date bi women.

I think if it's an LGB even then bisexuals should NOT be bringing a straight partner.

I've mostly been with men because I've been funnelled into that. And men are pushy where I've never even had a woman approach me. There is a hole in a community for bi women who are with men out of ease or internalised homophobia. It certainly feels lonely as we don't fit anywhere really. But if I was attending an LGB even I would never bring a straight partner as it would impact the feel of the event for everyone. Also having dated men I would never want straight men there because from my experience they like the idea of girl on girl action and make my history and trying to work out what I am a kink for male gratification.

If I want to date men I have most places for that. If I want to mix within straight community again many many places for that. Working out who I am and how I relate to women is not easy to do and that's why i do feel part of LGB but not with a male partner in tow. Definitely keep heterosexual couples out the LBG events OP.

How do you not get this when you say you’ve “been mixing in lesbian, women's, feminist and LGB circles for 40 years” and “been to thousands of women's events.”

Nike
Just Do It

was a huge advert campaign.

The T-shirt is a play on words,

Dike
Just Do Her

Spelled it Dike instead of Dyke so you get the allusion to Nike.
Doing someone is slang for having sex with them.

Next you’ll be wondering who the Dykes on Bikes are…

MarieDeGournay, I agree w a lot what you've said.
I think the things w issue groups is that they're going to be v different often. Yes there is a big difference between lesbians & bi women, or sometimes not as much, depending on whether the bi woman is w a woman or man.
Similarly, gay men's issues are often quite different from lesbians, & to generalise, I would say that lesbians have been more willing to help than vice versa, though otoh lesbians never faced something as awful as the AIDS crisis.
I think that organising as a huge block, or smaller subgroups, can't have a hard & fast answer. For things like marriage & adoption rights, LGB made sense, bc those affected all, or in the case of B, at least some.
But for issues now, while lesbian, bi , & gay people are all facing the incursion of TRAs to varying degrees, I think that separate spaces are really important for issues. They are going to be v different, & obvs people are unique, but generally members of the individual groups will have more in common w their own group in terms of issues faced. I personally think that bi women would do better apart from bi men. Judging from what I've seen on reddit, the bi men tend to dominate the space & can be quite sexist - not all, ofc.

For some that would be the gap. But for others, they may want someone who shares the understanding & experience of same-sex relationships, which by default has a different dynamic to an opposite sex one, how different ofc depends on the individuals. Sttaight female friends often discuss relationships, or that can be a bonding thing for some. So it makes sense that lesbians may want to have a friend who has that in common w her.

I feel like in the fight against idpol, it's worth remembering that identity based groups can stil be important to people, & that shouldn't be pooh-poohed by default.

@Burntt, I've heard these issues before & have a lot of sympathy. Lesbians can have awful experiences w people who make them feel they're not good enough as not male. But that's no excuse for being horrible to you.
On the approaching issue, I know how awful dating apps are. You say women never approach- the issue w being used to men is that you have the approached mindset, but I can see that it's harder to approach women if there's no lesbian spaces?

I think you're missing thr point. There are very few lesbian spaces. Many lesbians want lesbian friends but don't want to be out on the town, in a bar etc. So a knitting group is a lovely idea. You cousin obvs didn't need more lesbian friends, which is fine. but otoh many lesbians would like to know more & a hobby group is a nice way to get to know people who jave sexualiry in common w you, but one that lets you bond over something that isn't sexuality related, bc obvs being gay isn't enough to make people friends w each other.. The hobby club is also serving an extra function in this case.

I get that...but it's not inevitable. I spend time on r/WLW sometimes & the bi women there post only about women. If they want men, there's a bi subreddit for that. Most of them are serious about dating women, not mourning lost opportunities, though I have sympathy for those who are, or simply identifying as bi to be trendy, like many unicorn hunters.

I think there'll probably always be room for "attraction-based" identity groups!

But in your example above, a lesbian probably wants a friend who actually has experience of being in a lesbian relationship who can give her practical advice. Obviously she could also ask her straight married friends for general relationship support or just to have a chat - that's great - but I don't see that there's meaningfully better advice she could get from a "bi" married friend who once had a bit of a crush on a female friend but in practice has had entirely heterosexual relationships.

If the bi married friend has previous experience in a lesbian relationship, then I'd count her in my "behaviour-based" grouping. I just overall feel that behaviour-based groupings instead of attraction-based groupings are more useful, but the latter framing is so entrenched in people's minds that people forget it's a pretty recent innovation.

It's analogous to the grouping "MSM" for HIV targeted messaging, or for e.g. including "political lesbians" in a campaign for marriage equality.

(i.e. those last two are other examples of useful behaviour-based groupings that include people of all sexual "orientation" identities but define their boundaries based on observable behaviours)

But one of the issues (we’ve seen on here to an extent) is that some people assume bi women in hetero appearing relationships are spicy straight. We’re not. I’ve been in a long term relationship with a woman and if I was ever to find myself single again I’d be more likely to date women out of choice.

Some do seek to exclude people like me.

Disclaimer: I wouldn’t, at a lesbian/LGBT (I personally wouldn’t attend a trans exclusionary group - my decision not the place to discuss) go on and on about my husband. Nor if it wasn’t a family focused event would I go on and on about my children. That’s just rude.

So as I said upthread, by all means exclude rude, annoying people. Totally on board for that. But not all bi defining people kissed a girl once and moved on. The suggestion is offensive. We’re bi whoever we’re with just as a single lesbian is still a lesbian.

But a lot of bi women in relationships ARE spicy straight. Or not spiced at all but the spice jar is on the table and could theoretically be sprinkled over the plate ;) It's not like it's an assumption that came out of thin air.

A little more gatekeeping means you can make more accurate assumptions.

Fwiw, I think at an LGBTQ+ event the range of experiences is so wide that it seems reasonable to me to include even bi-curious people. Likewise a trans-inclusive lesbian group. But I don't see any issue with a lesbian-only group, or an individual lesbian woman looking for lesbian friends, to filter for people who've actually had lesbian experiences.

But a lot of bi women in relationships ARE spicy straight. Or not spiced at all but the spice jar is on the table and could theoretically be sprinkled over the plate ;) It's not like it's an assumption that came out of thin air.

You say it isn't an assumption, so what evidence are you basing that statement on?

Like, going outside ever?

Sorry, I presume you mean 'judging by observation' but I still don't see how this can tell you that a lot of bi-women are "spicy straight" as you put it. The only way you can know a woman is 'spicy straight' is if she tells you, and even if it is the case that some bi-women of your acquaintance have described themselves as such, this isn't a basis for your sweeping statement.