Can we talk about bisexuality?

[Pluvia]

Just that really. I'm a lesbian, one of a number seeking to rebuild new lesbian and LGB networks after our established communities and events and hang-outs and culture have been trashed by the TQIA+ brigade.

Lesbians and gay men are feeling really beleaguered. We've seen almost every sphere of gay and lesbian life infiltrated by 'queer', trans and spicy straight people all using the events and groups we've founded for their own purposes — mainly of validation. Pride has been taken over by the T. Our cafes, pubs, bars, all gone.

I think a significant number of gay and lesbian activists are finding it increasingly difficult to work out where bisexuality fits into all this. I'm in a number of different LGB groups and this issue has started to crop up in them. People who join describing themselves as bisexual and wanting to get involved in helping rebuild their local LGB communities turn out to be in long-term, stable heterosexual relationships. Some of them for 20+ years. Some bi people in such relationships want to involve their straight partners on the basis that although the partner is straight, they are in relationship with a bi person who isn't — but who, to the outside world, looks straight.

Does it matter? Well, if you're in a heterosexual relationship you're unlikely to experience the everyday (usually minor) moments that most of us who are out still encounter. Things like the need to come out regularly to people who assume that we're in straight relationships, the slight but still palpable 'othering' that sometimes comes when people realise they're talking to someone who isn't just like them. Sometimes it's much more pointed. And if we hold, say, an LGB club night, so that LGB people can associate without the straight gaze, should we allow bisexuals to bring their straight partners? Doesn't that negate the intention of the event?

Bisexual people who are living in a heterosexual relationship have the security of being undercover. They may not see it like that, of course, but they pass as straight. I'm pretty sure that one of the bi women who's involved in one of the groups I'm in is a straight woman who bases her bisexual identity on the fact that she had a relationship with a woman while at university, many years ago.

I don't know if there's a solution to this. I think lesbians and gay men are much more cautious around the dangers of self-ID and identity politics than they ever were. How are other groups handling this?

I do, if I don't want my whole hand and forearm in cramp. It's never in my life taken me less than 20 minutes to achieve orgasm without artificial assistance.

Yes, some of the comments are shocking. This is why I started to understand biphobia some years ago. I initially thought it was just a made up thing that, if it existed, was rare, but this thread has been quite upsetting.

There’s also an element of….ambiguity(?) too. What is a lesbian/a bisexual woman? We could be exactly the same desire-wise and sexual experience-wise, but we might label our sexuality differently. Somebody here said they identified as a lesbian but had slept with a man. That’s fine. But where’s the dividing line? What if a woman realises her sexuality later in life, having slept with men? Is she lesbian? Bisexual? Fickle??

I label myself as bisexual only because I think it’s the most honest label. I prefer women and I’ve slept with more women but very occasionally I see a man that I think is attractive. For that reason, I say I’m bisexual. However, a friend who’s slept with more men than women calls herself a lesbian? How are you going to gatekeep these clubs that don’t want bisexual people there? What about young people who might still be exploring their sexuality? Or older women whose lesbianism only becomes apparent in their 40s or whatever? And what about women who have never had a sexual partner? Do they have to prove they’re a lesbian? What about lesbians who haven’t had a relationship for many years? Are they ok?

For me, the answer to all those is Yes. Any woman attending an LGB club must surely have same sex attraction? Why push people away for not being a ‘true lesbian’?

A bisexual person bringing along an opposite sex partner is a bit crass, but that’s a separate matter from whether bisexuals en masse should be excluded from LGB stuff. And how would you know?? And if you did know, what would be acceptable? Having slept with one man? One men more than 10 years ago??

The judgement here is so weird. The example above of the married woman who then moved on to a butch lesbian - someone implied that that was because she still really ‘wanted a man’. WTAF!! You could say that about all femme/butch partnerships! It’s equally mad and rude!

We’re enough of a minority as it is without this mean-spirited gate-keeping and dismissal of other women’s experiences. Bisexual women do face discrimination and hate and, as shown here, it’s often from the very people who should understand.

All this has shown me is that I need to remain in the closet and/or change my label. Actually, I’m not a fan of labels at all. They lead to exclusion and tribalism.

I think you're gatekeeping and it's not a good look.

A black lesbian is going to have a completely different experience to a white lesbian. A disabled gay man is going to live a different life to an abled gay man. a lesbian from a working class background might have faced more challenges than a lesbian from a wealthy background.

If everyone tries to shut out anyone who they feel hasn't had the same hardships as them then we end up in a network of one.

You do know disabled lesbians have got together? Black lesbians have got together?
And frankly a bisexual woman who is in a long term relationship with a man has very different life experiences to me.

We’re enough of a minority as it is without this mean-spirited gate-keeping and dismissal of other women’s experiences. Bisexual women do face discrimination and hate and, as shown here, it’s often from the very people who should understand.

That starts to sound very like the Trans approach to lesbians. 'Don't be mean-spirited gate-keepers, don't dismiss transwomen's experiences.' I don't appreciate the finger-wagging, guilt-tripping, be kind, be inclusive message. That's what's got us where we are. I'd say that lesbians are allowed to draw their boundaries wherever it suits them and if that means not including bi women who aren't involved in a same-sex relationship then they have my support.

I think, as @MarieDeGournay said earlier, it's clear from some of the posts here that there is such a thing as biphobia and that bisexual people face a different set of issues than those confronted by gay men and lesbian women. It's increasingly clear to me that bisexual people can't expect to be adequately represented by the lesbians or gay men who have formed the majority of members of organisations like Stonewall, historically, and LGB Alliance today, and are still the most active and outspoken elements of the LGB. I'm aware of dozens of different lesbian, gay and LGB organisations and groups but I can't think of a single bisexual group or bisexual spokesperson, and I'd suggest that needs to change. Don't get angry with lesbians and gays because we don't understand — particularly if, for all intents and purposes, you're living a straight life.

@BreatheAndFocus why are you in the closet?
If you were not, you would know that virtually every group includes bisexual women. We are talking about a tiny number of groups nationally that are lesbian only.

The usual definition is that lesbians are only interested in women, whatever their past. So a woman married to a man who comes out later in life as a lesbian is now saying she is only interested in being with women. That is the difference.

That starts to sound very like the Trans approach to lesbians. 'Don't be mean-spirited gate-keepers, don't dismiss transwomen's experiences.' I don't appreciate the finger-wagging, guilt-tripping, be kind, be inclusive message. That's what's got us where we are. I'd say that lesbians are allowed to draw their boundaries wherever it suits them and if that means not including bi women who aren't involved in a same-sex relationship then they have my support.

This.

We need clarity on what spaces are for who as well.

Of course there are bisexual groups. A quick google shows this very large London bisexual group.
https://www.meetup.com/london-bisexuals/

Because it’s less hassle @JoyousGreyOrca because it protects me, and because,TBH, I don’t know what ‘official’ label to use and have used both bisexual and lesbian over the years. This is for a number of reasons which I won’t bore you with.

Edited to add - my comment about excluding bi women was in relation to the idea put forward in the OP. I can be in the closet and still go to LGB groups, which I have done.

A black lesbian and a disabled gay man are both same-sex attracted. That's what makes them lesbian or gay and that may be the only thing they have in common. A woman living in a long-term relationship with a man (or vice versa) won't share their experience. I don't think it's a good look to tell lesbians and gay men that they shouldn't be allowed to have boundaries that suit them.

I had no idea. Good. Bisexuals need to get together to work for their own interests.

Use whatever label you want. But at least be brave enough to not be in the closet.

Bisexual women have met with a whole lot of crap here. I’m not in the closet from fear, but because I no longer have the patience to deal with it and the questions/assumptions from both straight and gay people. When I get close (friendship-wise, that is) or if it comes up in conversation, I do sometimes tell people.

@BreatheAndFocus but you said you are mainly in relationships with women? So what does being in the closet mean? Do you just pretend to be straight?

Because it’s less hassle, because it protects me

And that's what lesbians and gay men living with same-sex partners can't escape and why probably they look at you, on occasion, with suspicion.

"For me, as a lesbian and a feminist, it's particularly about escaping the straight male gaze"

Then why have LGB events, why not women only (regardless of sexuality)?

I go to women only events/ some times discos.

I feel the male gaze as the male gaze regardless of their identity/declared sexuality.

I agree with you, op about not bringing straight men to LGB events.

But I wouldnt feel comfortable dancing in front of gay men either.

Bisexual discrimination is rife in the lesbian community. I've experienced it. I've never experienced it from any straight people. People who know me know about my preferences for 25+ years. But yes some people who meet me do make the straight assumption because I have long hair, wear more shapely /colourful clothing than jeans & T shirts. I dont see this as any kind of 'bi privilege'. It's stereotyping.

If I go on a night out I could end up pulling a man or a woman 2 vs 2 on my last 4 nights out. It's only ever lesbians who scorn me for this. Why?

I don't feel welcome at LGB events or lesbian only events even though I know they've invited other bisexual women that just haven't pulled for a while.

Are gays and lesbians in straight sham marriages excluded from LG spaces? Logically, they should be.

Knew we’d be next after you threw out trans people. So what happens next when you get rid of all the bi people from your spaces? Is it like in The L Word where you have to be a ‘gold star’ lesbian to ‘count’.
I’m bi sexual. Always have been, always will be. I’m also a big fan of monogamy so I’m in a relationship with a man. I would remember my privilege at being ‘straight passing’ in relevant conversations but also appreciate deeply all the many people who have welcomed me in to their community.
It feels like bi people can’t win. If we’re faithful people insist we have changed orientation. If not you feed into the stereotype about not being ‘satisfied’.

Surely it depends which spaces?
And as I have consistently said, virtually every group includes bisexual people. So we are talking about a tiny number of lesbian groups. Access to 99% of groups is obviously not good enough

It’s more the offensive reasoning which is stating that bi people in committed with relationships with straight people aren’t bi but are straight. We’re not. We’re bi.

@Pluvia Groups have never gone away. They just are not that public. There are lots of lesbian and bi womens groups, a small number of lesbian only groups. Most are older women, but there are some younger women now setting up these groups.

The key is simply to do it. You will not get funding. But you just start something up, advertise it word of mouth or through meet up, and have the group. If it is lesbian only, you will get more complaints than if it is LB and exclude trans people.

Not in a relationship with anyone at the moment @JoyousGreyOrca No, I don’t pretend to be straight. I just stay quiet in social situations. Obviously I tell potential partners.

Your questions have inadvertently started a bit of a self-examination here. The brief version is I initially said I was lesbian as a teen, felt I didn’t fit in because the small number of lesbians I knew were nothing like me (all butch) which caused me to question myself.I then went to uni where I kind of gave up trying because every girl I found attractive was straight. I started to think then that I wasn’t a proper lesbian as I didn’t fancy any of the other lesbians I knew. But I still liked women so I settled on being bi because that felt psychologically better because it was a different group: I didn’t fit in socially or visually with the lesbians but I was attracted to women and that’s a massive part of who I am. I’d never say I’m straight.

Basically I felt different in my teens and at uni - which was soul-destroying when I thought I’d found people like me who found girls/women attractive. Possibly in another location (I lived very rurally) and a different situation, I’d always have labelled myself as lesbian. Who knows? I just leave the mental gymnastics now. ‘Bisexual’ covers things ok when I need or want to say.

Knew we’d be next after you threw out trans people.

• Trans people have different political aims and different life challenges to same-sex attracted people.
• Same-sex attracted men have different life challenges from same-sex attracted women.
• Bisexual women have different life challenges from lesbians. Ditto bi men from gays.
• Lesbians have different life challenges from gays.

It's actually not in the least unreasonable to have separate spaces for all three of L, G, and B.

What is unreasonable is for a space to be for L and B or G and B or LGB and then for bis to get the side eye in that space.

We have a local walking group for lesbians. It's advertised as for lesbians, not lesbians and bisexual women. I don't go to it because I'm not a lesbian. There's a bar near me that has a male-only floor. I don't go there because I'm not male. But when a bar says it's for LGB, I expect to be able to go there without getting the side-eye from lesbians or anyone else.

I accept you are bi. But I do not think you have anything more in common with lesbians than a straight woman does

You do realise that 'there's a group in London' isn't representative of the experience of most people outside London? A google of groups near me only returned 'LGBT (+ in some cases) groups, which takes us back to the issue of L/G people not necessarily being welcoming (whether with good reason or not is irrelevant) of Bi people, especially those in opposite sex relationships.

London is a fantastically diverse city and there's probably a group for pretty much everyone, however niche, but that's no use if you're 300 miles away.