Can we talk about bisexuality?

[Pluvia]

Just that really. I'm a lesbian, one of a number seeking to rebuild new lesbian and LGB networks after our established communities and events and hang-outs and culture have been trashed by the TQIA+ brigade.

Lesbians and gay men are feeling really beleaguered. We've seen almost every sphere of gay and lesbian life infiltrated by 'queer', trans and spicy straight people all using the events and groups we've founded for their own purposes — mainly of validation. Pride has been taken over by the T. Our cafes, pubs, bars, all gone.

I think a significant number of gay and lesbian activists are finding it increasingly difficult to work out where bisexuality fits into all this. I'm in a number of different LGB groups and this issue has started to crop up in them. People who join describing themselves as bisexual and wanting to get involved in helping rebuild their local LGB communities turn out to be in long-term, stable heterosexual relationships. Some of them for 20+ years. Some bi people in such relationships want to involve their straight partners on the basis that although the partner is straight, they are in relationship with a bi person who isn't — but who, to the outside world, looks straight.

Does it matter? Well, if you're in a heterosexual relationship you're unlikely to experience the everyday (usually minor) moments that most of us who are out still encounter. Things like the need to come out regularly to people who assume that we're in straight relationships, the slight but still palpable 'othering' that sometimes comes when people realise they're talking to someone who isn't just like them. Sometimes it's much more pointed. And if we hold, say, an LGB club night, so that LGB people can associate without the straight gaze, should we allow bisexuals to bring their straight partners? Doesn't that negate the intention of the event?

Bisexual people who are living in a heterosexual relationship have the security of being undercover. They may not see it like that, of course, but they pass as straight. I'm pretty sure that one of the bi women who's involved in one of the groups I'm in is a straight woman who bases her bisexual identity on the fact that she had a relationship with a woman while at university, many years ago.

I don't know if there's a solution to this. I think lesbians and gay men are much more cautious around the dangers of self-ID and identity politics than they ever were. How are other groups handling this?

I can relate very strongly to this post. I'm in my 50s and married 20 years to a man. I am 'out' to my family, husband and close friends but I have never mentioned it at work - not because I fear I'd be shunned; almost the opposite - there is a very inclusive rainbow-type culture there, and my fear would be that I'd look as though I was inventing my sexuality to gain attention and validation (although I have no need of either).

If I wanted to join a social space to connect with anyone, it would be other bisexual women in a similar situation to me, rather than lesbians. I don't share the struggles of a lesbian, but nor does a lesbian share mine. Namely that I want a monogamous relationship, I wouldn't be happy with a threesome or polyamory (not judging those who are, it's just not emotionally for me). Yet what I am missing sexually has tormented me, throughout my marriage.

When I was a teenager I used to fantasise exclusively about women, and was ashamed (this was the homophobic 80s) but in my 20s this broadened to being equally men and women, often both at the same time. I am unattractive so have had very few real life sexual relationships.

Now, there are times when I want to scream in frustration because I can't be with a woman sexually, but I do take my marriage vows seriously, so there is nothing I can do.

So, don't worry, OP, I am not going to trespass on your territory. But it would be good if you could think a little more before deciding that the straight-passing bi woman has an easy life.

OP, thank you for raising this issue.

I am bisexual and I agree with you. My relationship with my sexuality is extremely complex (for reasons I'd rather not go into here). It is an important part of my identity, but, crucially, my identity is personal and private. This is something the modern "LGBT" movement doesn't seem to understand - it's all about external validation, which isn't healthy.

Very, very few people in my life know that I am bisexual as I have been married to a man for many years. On a daily basis, my bisexuality just isn't relevant. For that reason alone, I choose not to be involved in LGB events. I wouldn't judge other bisexuals who do but I understand the problem of straight partners being present in lesbian or gay spaces. Same as I wouldn't bring my husband to social gatherings for women.

And I'm sorry you've had some less than understanding responses.

I'm an "older " lesbian (50) and I'd probably only be interested in female only events. With the amount of straight men appearing in gay venues, and the behaviour/watching that they do, I just wouldn't go to something "gay" where straight men come along.

I like women only events, lesbian/bisexual are the same to me. Women attracted to women.

Maybe the question is: what are these events for? What is the community for?

For me, as a lesbian and a feminist, it's particularly about escaping the straight male gaze, about being with people who are more likely to have been through similar experiences than the average straight person, about not having to explain, about feeling at home even if I don't agree with everyone else on all sorts of other issues.

Would you ask the same questions of other minority communities? Would you question, say, people of West Indian origin getting together and feeling like a community? Or deaf people? I don't know, I'm just pondering.

I can completely relate.

I've experienced a fair bit of bi phobia from both gay and straight people. It's a bit crap.

I'm married to a man. We're both bi. We pass for straight I guess. Doesn't stop us being bi. How would you know if the partner was 'straight' unless you specifically asked? Would me and my husband appear too straight to attend? Even if people knew we're bi, would we still be considered too straight?

Btw, I agree with you on the T takeover.

So, don't worry, OP, I am not going to trespass on your territory. But it would be good if you could think a little more before deciding that the straight-passing bi woman has an easy life.

It sounds agonising, the way you've described it. And certainly, if as it seems there are lots of people in your situation, something that needs representing and open acknowledgement.

Any forum conversation about bisexuality demonstrates the continued existence of biphobia. Including this one.

When I made the naive mistake of holding hands in public with my then-girlfriend, the half-full coke can and verbal abuse that a man threw at us from a passing car were motivated by the mixture of homophobia and misogyny that we call lesbophobia.

Yet lesbians don't trust me (the first lesbians I ever knowingly met, aged 19, literally went silent and blanked me when I said I was bi), and straight men don't trust me and at the same time want a threesome with me. Bi men fair a little better only because they aren't subjected to misogyny: you only need look at threads on this site to see how little straight women trust bi men and many openly state disgust for them.

With this level of hostility from homosexuals and heterosexuals alike, it's small wonder that many of us take the path of least resistance through life and masquerade as straight.

Yes, I think these are important questions (sometimes important to answer, but actually sometimes important to quietly agree not to answer!) for any community gathering. Any community that has gatekeeping not based on precise, articulated rules runs into similar problems to the ones being discussed here. I happen to know that the d/Deaf community has very similar problems about whether, when and how to include hard of hearing people, for example. Ironically perhaps in this forum, I think one of the very few gatekeeping rules that can work in practice, if it is allowed to, is "women only".

I've no idea. But you can, I hope, see that to the world you are a biological woman in a relationship with a biological male and however you think/ feel, you are likely to be read as a straight couple with none of the peril or loss of social status accorded to people in same-sex relationships.

Thank goodness things have changed for the better on the legal front. Those of us who are older lesbians and gay men grew up as second class citizens. Literally: we didn't have equal rights.

I can absolutely see the crap way the gay and lesbian community have/are treated.

I am unusual in that I’m a bisexual woman married to another bisexual woman. We’ve been together decades. Everyone assumes we’re lesbians, which is fine, but I also feel guilty because there are men I fancy I don’t want anyone to think that lesbians are into men in any way because of a comment I might make about a celebrity. For all practical and legal purposes I’m gay - we weren’t able to get married before the law changed - we were defined by our same sex relationship. We experience homophobia, there are countries we can’t/won’t visit.

if I was in a long term relationship with a man I’d still be bisexual, but I don’t know why I’d be in LGB groups, clubs etc except as an “ally”. In the same way I don’t correct people now who assume I’m a lesbian, I can’t imagine being in a straight relationship and feeling the need to tell everyone I’m bisexual. It does feel like having all the benefits of being in a heterosexual relationship but wanting to be special.

I count myself lucky that my husband is accepting of my sexuality, and he is the 'right' person for me in terms of our interests, outlook, companionship etc. But for the monogamous bisexual, there will always be a sexual chasm that can't be filled, and also a hard-to-define emotional gap because, however much your male partner is your romantic partner, there is a difference in the emotional dynamic.

if I was in a long term relationship with a man I’d still be bisexual, but I don’t know why I’d be in LGB groups, clubs etc except as an “ally”. In the same way I don’t correct people now who assume I’m a lesbian, I can’t imagine being in a straight relationship and feeling the need to tell everyone I’m bisexual. It does feel like having all the benefits of being in a heterosexual relationship but wanting to be special.

Totally agree.

It does feel like having all the benefits of being in a heterosexual relationship but wanting to be special.

The fear of seeming like this is exactly why I don't mention it at work etc. In practical terms, it doesn't affect anything, but it sometimes causes me a sense of internal disconnection to know I am assumed to be straight.

In my humble straight opinion. There is an awful lot of cross over in deaf issues, clubs, culture , identity, history of persecution and prejudice and medicalisation than you would believe.

If you are musing then if you have no prior knowledge of it I think you would maybe find some arguments very interesting.

Your other example is quite closed Deafness incorporates every race. culture sexually and religion on the planet Much as does homosexuality x

If you’ve got nothing useful to say, but can only throw in sneering sound bites designed to belittle another poster, I politely suggest you go and find something better to do with your day.

I've read your post several times and I don't think I understand what it is you're saying. Yes, of course there are deaf people of all kinds all over the world. And homosexual people. And...?

I think it is useful to offer some perspective. This chat sits under the heading Feminism, where there are real issues. This isn’t. Carry on chatting by all means, but don’t try to shut down others who don’t share your sense of victimisation.

Analysis paralysis is not a barrel of laughs.

Tiddlywinkly · I've experienced a fair bit of bi phobia from both gay and straight people. It's a bit crap.

selffellatingouroborosofhate · Any forum conversation about bisexuality demonstrates the continued existence of biphobia. Including this one.

There you have it: biphobia is a real thing, it emanates from both lesbian and gay, and heterosexual people, neither L&G nor straight people experience it because they are not bisexual.
That seems to confirm that the experience of being bisexual is specific and different from being homosexual, so why LGB?

I think that one thing that is absolutely true is that there is no "right" answer to a question like this.

What is appropriate, and what people will want to do, is going to depend on a lot of different things, the nature of the group, what it's main goal is, and even the specific event. A couples event or family picnic might be a lot different than a more political type of meeting or a protest, for example.

i'm becoming grumpy though I think. I read about someone saying, well, the person I'm talking to have a somewhat different experience and I feel something about that, and I want to say, so sorry, suck it up buttercup. And then I read someone else say "oh, so we are excluded because we've been living in a heterossexual relationship for 20 years and I never actually dated a women, and I was to say, so sorry, such it up buttercup.

I do also wonder if there is an element with this, of people who in the past might not have "identified" as bisexual doing so now. I think this is particularly true of younger people. I don't know with men, but I think that it's actually pretty common for many women to be more open to a kind of low-level attraction to other women. But many wouldn't have gone so far as to call themselves bisexual. Sexuality is not quite as hard and fast for all as some people think, so definitions become tricky.

Let's face it, the reason why bisexual got added onto the Lesbian and gay label was to include other same-sex attracted people who weren't defined as exclusively same-sex attracted, who perhaps flew under the radar of discrimination. It would've been a lot easier if it was just same-sex attracted.

And we even have the scenario (particularly with NHS language) where they say "men who have sex with men", because a lot don't define themselves as either homosexual or bisexual.

It's interesting that 50 years ago, straight people and gay people didn't exist. You were just a person who had same-sex relationships. There was no identity around it. Think of it more akin to hair or eye colour.

When I see LGB events, it is based around same-sex attraction. A lesbian dating night is open to both lesbian and bisexual women to find a same-sex partner.

Because they share a clear interest in political rights. Which is what civil rights movements are about.

50 years ago might be too soon now. But historically what you describe was the norm. So not a political or social identity.

The men who have sex with men usage started I think in the AIDS crises. Largely because they were more concerned with reaching the right people than reaching people with a particular social identity, whatever the reason for that. But it also acknowledged that there were a lot of young men involved in prostitution who might not actually be homosexual.