Can we talk about bisexuality?

[Pluvia]

Just that really. I'm a lesbian, one of a number seeking to rebuild new lesbian and LGB networks after our established communities and events and hang-outs and culture have been trashed by the TQIA+ brigade.

Lesbians and gay men are feeling really beleaguered. We've seen almost every sphere of gay and lesbian life infiltrated by 'queer', trans and spicy straight people all using the events and groups we've founded for their own purposes — mainly of validation. Pride has been taken over by the T. Our cafes, pubs, bars, all gone.

I think a significant number of gay and lesbian activists are finding it increasingly difficult to work out where bisexuality fits into all this. I'm in a number of different LGB groups and this issue has started to crop up in them. People who join describing themselves as bisexual and wanting to get involved in helping rebuild their local LGB communities turn out to be in long-term, stable heterosexual relationships. Some of them for 20+ years. Some bi people in such relationships want to involve their straight partners on the basis that although the partner is straight, they are in relationship with a bi person who isn't — but who, to the outside world, looks straight.

Does it matter? Well, if you're in a heterosexual relationship you're unlikely to experience the everyday (usually minor) moments that most of us who are out still encounter. Things like the need to come out regularly to people who assume that we're in straight relationships, the slight but still palpable 'othering' that sometimes comes when people realise they're talking to someone who isn't just like them. Sometimes it's much more pointed. And if we hold, say, an LGB club night, so that LGB people can associate without the straight gaze, should we allow bisexuals to bring their straight partners? Doesn't that negate the intention of the event?

Bisexual people who are living in a heterosexual relationship have the security of being undercover. They may not see it like that, of course, but they pass as straight. I'm pretty sure that one of the bi women who's involved in one of the groups I'm in is a straight woman who bases her bisexual identity on the fact that she had a relationship with a woman while at university, many years ago.

I don't know if there's a solution to this. I think lesbians and gay men are much more cautious around the dangers of self-ID and identity politics than they ever were. How are other groups handling this?

I'm being a bit flippant, but I think this is a labelling term. I think almost everyone would agree that there is a group of women who:

• Have either never had a sexual experience with a woman, or have only had experiences short of a long-term relationship (kissed a girl in a bar, intense "best friend" situation, short fling at uni, threesome with another woman etc)
• If they did have these experiences, enjoyed them and found them positive, and potentially open to having them again if circumstances allowed
• Continue to find women attractive in a theoretical way
• Are currently in, or if currently single, are usually in a monogamous heterosexual relationship
• See themselves with a man long-term, living a heterosexual married life raising their own biological children with the father
• Corollary, don't seriously consider the idea of entering into a forever-relationship with a woman

I think this is a distinct group of women who have shared experiences with each other, and "deserve" a label and would find it interesting to support each other. I think whether we call them "spicy straights" or "married bi woman", it's hard to dispute that this group exists and is large.

Corollary, don't seriously consider the idea of entering into a forever-relationship with a woman

"Don't seriously consider the idea of entering into a forever-relationship with a woman human" is basically me. I feel trapped inside my own skin when other people are in my house, yet I still want sex every now and then. I can see how a lesbian would mistake me for someone who fitted your other bullet points.

I wonder how many of the new "queer" "relationship orientation" labels, like "aromantic", have come from autistic people looking to find shorthand ways to describe how we feel about sex, marriage, sharing a home, kids, and all the rest of it?

Well. I’m a woman currently married to a man but don’t otherwise match your bullet points so that label falls down.

Why can’t the exclusion from group be based on behaviour in the group. Be an idiot and talk over people when it really isn’t your place, then you should leave whatever your status.

Disclaimer: I would definitely not expect to bring my husband with me! He really would be superfluous as would any discussion of him.

I’m still Bi though. Not straight.

I wouldn't disagree that such a group of women exists, but I don't think your list applies to all of us - and this is where I'd disagree with the 'spicy straight' label as a general term for bi-women currently in a marriage/LTR with a man.

If you are, or wanted to be, monogamous and have ended up finding monogamy with a man, it doesn't mean that you sought a man, specifically, or had any desire to give birth to children etc. The reality is that most of us don't have a huge pool of candidates for a LTR from which we can take our pick - it isn't a case of choosing a notional man over a notional woman - it's a case of finding a non-notional person with whom you are compatible in all the ways needed for a LTR and who is accepting of your bi-sexuality, including history with their opposite sex.

I mean, if you don't see yourself in that group, then I guess you're not. But I still contend that it's a very big group and makes up the majority of married bi women, i.e. a significant enough % that it's not an unreasonable assumption to make about someone.

I think there's this idea that in order for a relationship to "count", it needs to have the possibility of leading to a marriage/LTR, introducing the parents etc. Which leads a lot of bi women to almost force themselves to think that their lesbian-until-graduation fling / bestfriendship that they know in their heart of hearts isn't going to be the one they walk down the aisle with, is a possibility.

I think that's a modern way of framing it which does disservice to these other types of relationships which can be very important in their own right. I know this is very unfashionable to say in the LGBTQ community, but I make no claims to be part of it so I feel free to comment! (FYI, I broadly fit into the category I described myself - I realised from my posts that it might seem I was a lesbian woman, which is a fine thing to be but not what I am.)

@OneAmberFinch
I dunno, I think all your assumptions based on what you think the majority of married bi womens’ inner sexuality is like are doomed from the outset.

Monogamy doesn’t mean a bisexual person is really a spicy heterosexual or spicy homosexual and they’ve decided the prefer a man over a woman- many of us are serial monogamists.

Following your assumptions, the really or standard bisexual people should all be in polyamorous relationships, all the time…

You aren’t trying to spin off a group of bisexual women based on anything to do with their sexuality, but based on their decision to be monogamous or polyamorous.

We don’t do that for any other sexuality. Why? Because only bisexuals are seen as incapable of monogamy and it’s this biphobia that is colouring your assumptions and pushing you to divide bisexuals into two groups- the ‘spicy straight/gay’ who are married to 1 other person so not “really” bisexual and bisexuals who aren’t in a long term monogamous relationship who fit into the biphobic stereotype you have internalised.

Of course lots of bisexual people are monogamous. But if your only same sex experience is a fling at university, and you are now married in a monogamous relationship, then no I do not think you belong in the LGBT community.

Married to a man you mean. Not just married.
Shouldn’t even need to have had sex to be part of the LGBT community.

I don’t think there should be such gate keeping. Like what threshold do you think should apply? A minimum of 5 same sex “flings” with none being more than 2/5/10 years ago to prove your bisexuality?

What if someone is a virgin or celibate due to religious or medical reasons? Can’t belong to the community either?

Virgin or celibate is fine.
George Michael got it right when he said it is not just about who you have sex with it, it is who you fall in love with.

Ok, but I’m a bit perturbed by this whole unless you are a virgin/celibate you must have had recent sex with someone of the same sex to “count” as bisexual and be part of the LGBT community.

I married at 20 to a man. We are still married. So yes, being monogamous, my last same sex relationship was over 30yrs ago, at Uni. It wasn’t a “fling” though- I was deeply in love with two of my girlfriends, the other women & men were casual sexual relationships or one night stands.

But I’m still bisexual. I have felt sexually attracted to many women and men over these married years, & been sorely tempted to have affairs. Had to pull back from friendships with women and men that were on the verge of becoming an affair - physical and/or emotional (falling in love). This sexual attraction and feelings of almost falling in love with both sexes didn’t stop because I had married a man, I dare say it would have happened if I had married a woman instead although that was illegal when I got married so I would have had to wait years to marry a woman.

The half of me that is really attracted to women is still very much alive in me. I didn’t turn straight by choosing monogamy. Nor should I be ejected from the LGBT communist because I have married the ‘wrong’ sex…🤔 there is no ‘wrong’ sex when you are bisexual anyway.

When I masturbate, I fantasise about women more often than men/my husband, probably because being monogamous with a man means that’s the only way I can sexually act on my desires for women without cheating. I often access sexually graphic memories of my ex girlfriends that even though it was over 30yrs ago can still feel like it was yesterday.

That’s why I say you can’t judge someone’s inner bisexuality by looking at things like relationship status, with which sex and how recent are the notches on the bedpost…

@SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice re: "we don't do that for any other sexuality"

You're right - and I think we should. My personal, very unfashionable view is that the modern framework of L, G, B, T etc, principally defined by internally-felt attraction, and moderated by a chosen identity, is not the most useful way to classify people. (I think it probably goes without saying that I think the combined LGBTQ+ is a grouping which is more of a political statement than a sexuality.)

As I said, I don't make any claim to be a member of the LGBT community so my opinion may freely disregarded.

@SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice Except I did not say what you claim I said. I said if you had a same sex fling at university, and since then have only had opposite sex relationships, and are now in a long term monogamous opposite sex relationship or marriage, I do not think you belong in the LGBT community.
I also have zero understanding why you are married to a man if it is women you are really sexually attracted to.

I am female, married to a man.

I am bisexual (or a lesbian in denial, I'm not sure) but as I am in a straight relationship, I feel I have no place in the LGBT community.

If I divorced my husband and dated women again, I would feel part of (and have a need for) the LGBT community.

Of course you can’t understand it. You’re not bisexual! But you seem to be suggesting unless we’re in some polygamous set up you don’t believe we’re bisexual. This IS biphobic.

As I said by all means exclude rude people from any group fine. Assuming we’re all like that based on your preconceptions is bigotry.

It was perfectly clear to me what @SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice said, was that she was attracted to men and women, i.e. the definition of bisexual.

@SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice didn't say it was 'women she was really attracted to'. She said she fantasises more about women than men because she is in a monogamous relationship with a man, so it's women she misses. I get that, because I'm in a similar situation. If we were in monogamous relationships with women, we'd be fantasising more about men.

Christ it’s like the 90s all over again. Lying about my bisexuality to lesbians so that I would be allowed in the “club”. Lying to men because I didn’t want them to ask or even think the inevitable porny questions. Retreating into books. Valuing the rare people who just accepted me. Wondering why monosexuality is the norm. And now here we go again. What an absolutely great way to end the week. “Keep quiet, hide your partners and keep your dirty little secret, nobody trusts you anyway.”

I do not understand that at all. I do not fantasise about different people when with my partner. Sounds like someone unhappy with being monogamous

No it doesn’t. Fantasies are just that. Fantasies. And they are different for different people. Fantasising about something doesn’t necessarily mean you want it to happen in real life! And it’s fine to find people other than the partner you’re committed to attractive, what isn’t fine is to cheat. They are different things.

This is a difficult thing for a lot of people, i have many conversations about this with a bisexual friend who is engaged to a man.
Ultimately its a personal decision, but she feels very much part of the LGBTQ community

I do feel very sorry for you. I'm straight but I have lesbian friends and they say (or some of them say) that this is a bigger "problem" than the days before gay women were "accepted". I wonder how true that is (not offering an opinion) but, if some lesbians l feel like that, then it must be a cause for concern.
As one of them put it, it was hard enough fighting for survival "alongside" straight women, now they have to fight alongside women who aren't women at all!

In what way though? Her life is no different to a straight couple, unless she is non monogamous.

I know a few women who are bi, in long term relationships with men and who like being part of the LGB community. I’m not sure they’d be interested in events solely for other bi people with opposite sex partners. The appeal of LGB events for them seems to be mixing with people who are living the same-sex life that they no longer are. I sympathise with your dilemma OP.

This is what I struggle with. All the privilege of being 'straight', plus access to LGB events. It doesn't feel right to me.

What @GrammarTeacher says. The number of people I can think of who've bigged-up fantasies and then gone for them — threesomes, hot lesbian sex, a Ferrari, getting a face-lift — and then found that it's not what they thought it would be and ended up going back to hubby or swapping the Roma for Fiat 500, or head down the Jocelyn Wildenstein route. That's the thing about fantasies: they're much better in your head than in reality. I think the LGB community has had enough of fantasy with the TQIANBFurry+ brigade.