Can we talk about bisexuality?

[Pluvia]

Just that really. I'm a lesbian, one of a number seeking to rebuild new lesbian and LGB networks after our established communities and events and hang-outs and culture have been trashed by the TQIA+ brigade.

Lesbians and gay men are feeling really beleaguered. We've seen almost every sphere of gay and lesbian life infiltrated by 'queer', trans and spicy straight people all using the events and groups we've founded for their own purposes — mainly of validation. Pride has been taken over by the T. Our cafes, pubs, bars, all gone.

I think a significant number of gay and lesbian activists are finding it increasingly difficult to work out where bisexuality fits into all this. I'm in a number of different LGB groups and this issue has started to crop up in them. People who join describing themselves as bisexual and wanting to get involved in helping rebuild their local LGB communities turn out to be in long-term, stable heterosexual relationships. Some of them for 20+ years. Some bi people in such relationships want to involve their straight partners on the basis that although the partner is straight, they are in relationship with a bi person who isn't — but who, to the outside world, looks straight.

Does it matter? Well, if you're in a heterosexual relationship you're unlikely to experience the everyday (usually minor) moments that most of us who are out still encounter. Things like the need to come out regularly to people who assume that we're in straight relationships, the slight but still palpable 'othering' that sometimes comes when people realise they're talking to someone who isn't just like them. Sometimes it's much more pointed. And if we hold, say, an LGB club night, so that LGB people can associate without the straight gaze, should we allow bisexuals to bring their straight partners? Doesn't that negate the intention of the event?

Bisexual people who are living in a heterosexual relationship have the security of being undercover. They may not see it like that, of course, but they pass as straight. I'm pretty sure that one of the bi women who's involved in one of the groups I'm in is a straight woman who bases her bisexual identity on the fact that she had a relationship with a woman while at university, many years ago.

I don't know if there's a solution to this. I think lesbians and gay men are much more cautious around the dangers of self-ID and identity politics than they ever were. How are other groups handling this?

@Pluvia

I do understand your quandary.

I think your instinct is right - that the bi partner is welcome but the straight other half isn't. It's not really fair on the homosexuals in the room if the straights are automatically included. Speaking as a straight woman myself.

Edited to tag in OP

Right. So I'm one of those women. I'm strongly attracted to women but am in a relationship with a man. I also know several women and men, in fact, m who were in heterosexual relationships and came out as lesbians/gay. Life is not always straightforward. You say we 'pass' as heterosexuals but actually we're fully aware of how people feel about those of us who are bisexual. We know people think we're not legitimate or 'properly' part of the LGB community because there is this constant need to gatekeep. It's tiresome. It's also why I steer of anything LGB related because this appears to be the pre ailing attitude

Im still bisexual. I'm in relationship with a man probably because when I was growing up I didn't really have a name for how I felt but liked men enough to go with the norm. I'm still more strongly attracted to women than men but still feel less able to express that for all sorts of reasons. My bisexuality absolutely has not changed because I'm in a relationship with a man. But because we're not in a same sex relationship we should just fuck off?

Nice

How fragile!

No, that's not at all what I'm saying. But I thank you from the bottom of my heart for illustrating the issue so beautifully.

I don't know if there's a solution to this.

Why do you need one?

I'm a bi sexual woman, I presume I 'pass' as straight, but I'm not trying to, I don't care about it and I could not give a flying duck what anyone else thinks of me.

I have had relationships with women over the years but settled into a long term marriage with a man; probably because I liked him the most.

You raise some very interesting points. Every time I rail against the force-teaming of TQ++ with LGB, a little voice asks - and how did the 'B' get there?

The thing about being lesbian or gay is that you have a definite sexual orientation which shapes your relationships - not just your intimate relationships, but wider social relationships, as you say, Pluvia:
Things like the need to come out regularly to people who assume that we're in straight relationships, the slight but still palpable 'othering' that sometimes comes when people realise they're talking to someone who isn't just like them.

The addition of B to LGB is relatively recent, if you go back you'll see that organisations were ' 'Gay', and then after campaigning by gay women 'Lesbian and Gay'. At some point it just became 'Lesbian, Gay and Bisexual' - inevitably the L&G community had no say in this, and it was not without its critics at the time - not that we have anything against bisexual people, it's not the deep-seated objection to what the TQ++ stands for, and at least it is to do with sexual identity rather than madey-uppy stuff; but as a friend of mine commented back then about the sudden addition of the B: 'Sometimes they are straight and sometimes they are gay - so why do we represent them full time?'

It would be a welcome return to clarity if lesbian and gay issues were recognised for what they are - issues facing people with a homosexual sexual orientation.
Other sexual orientations exist, including heterosexual and bisexual, and all are 'worthy of respect ...' but they are not the same.

It is a cornerstone of FWR that women's rights should be respected as being about women, and this is not to suggest that other people's rights are less important. Similarly it can be argued that lesbian and gay rights should be respected as being about homosexual people.

I've just read some of the responses that have been posted since I started writing this (I have difficulty with finding words, and it takes me a long time to get my thoughts onscreen). I'm a bit shocked at the nastiness of the reply to the OP's thoughful post. Nobody's being 'fragile' or telling anybody to 'fuck off'.
Maybe engage with the issue rather than throwing around accusations like that?

Sometimes they're straight and sometimes they're gay 😂

No they're bi all the time !

Maybe engage with the issue rather than throwing around accusations like that?

I guess it depends what you see "the issue" as. People who are L, G or B are now so common. No-one cares who you sleep with. They might see you as "other" but just in the way a group of brexiteers might see remainers as other. It's life, get on with it and stop being so self-obsessed

Thanks, @MarieDeGournay It's early days at the moment, trying to rebuild a new LGB community and I was hoping for some insight into how others are doing it. The way things are going right now I suspect that having entirely separate L and G groups/organisations is going to be the way we end up moving forward. Bisexual people obviously have the option of creating their own separate organisations and events.

So you’d have dinner with a Brexiteer but presumably you wouldn’t invite a Brexiteer to join a Remain/Rejoin campaign group? or a social event directly related to a rejoin campaign group?

@Pluvia I'm not illustrating anything. I don't insert myself into LG community issues because I'm aware I'm not welcome. I certainly wouldn't involve my partner. It's just frustrating to constantly be told, as I bisexual woman, that I'm somehow not a legitimate part of the LGB community because i swing both ways.

I'm bi / pansexual but I only ever joined light events while single / dating women. I ended up married to a man so I'd feel weird going to an LGBT group because I'm not experiencing the challanges of that community - it's a safe place for gays. If I end up divorced and fept like dating again, yeah I'd rejoin at that time. Sp I guess I feel same as you OP regarding events/ membership etc

I don't think the point is your legitimacy in the LGB community, you are absolutely a legitimate part of the LGB community, but that's not the point. I appreciate that you personally respect the specificity of the lesbian and gay community.

The point that was raised for discussion [and raised tentatively and respectfully, I think you'll agree] is about the rationality of having a 'LGB community' that conflates representing the interests of homosexual people with those of bisexual people, given that homosexuality, heterosexuality and bisexuality are different, with different statuses in society.

@CandyLeBonBon No one has said that.

And I know you don't think you illustrate anything, but you do illustrate the complexity of the situation — feeling more strongly sexually attracted to women but not acting on it and choosing a heterosexual relationship. For clarity, I'm not saying you don't have every right to identify however you identify or feel whatever you feel or make whatever decisions suit you best. But I don't know how same-sex attracted people are supposed to include and people in your position without feeling compromised.

I think lots of people misunderstand bisexuality. I’m bisexual. When I was younger, I read about biphobia and didn’t think it existed, but now I know it does and it seems to be getting worse.

OP, I understand why a bisexual woman bring her straight male partner might cause some discomfort, and, personally, in that situation I wouldn’t bring a male partner because I’d feel awkward. But, I’m still the same person with the same bisexuality whether I bring a woman or a man. Does that make sense?

Being bisexual isn’t some kind of half-hearted attempt or ‘fake’ attempt at being homosexual - but I often get the impression some people think it is. The only people who understand are other bisexuals, I’ve found. TBH, I’ve largely given up explaining. Sadly, I’m now back in the closet too. It’s actually hard being bisexual - maybe in a different way to being gay, but it’s still hard.

People have all these misassumptions; when you’re with a man you’re wrongly thought of as straight and you’re also looked on with suspicion as you ‘might go off with a woman’ at any moment (so, a kind of double whammy there); when you’re in a relationship with a woman you’re still ‘looked down on’ as lesser, and people start going on about previous relationships; you’re seen as less discerning sexually, when, in fact, I’m actually extremely fussy and find very few people (of either sex) sexually attractive. Your sexuality as someone who’s bisexual is questioned by ‘both sides’, straight and gay, and you’re looked on as ‘other’.

No, I don’t think bisexual people should have to have their own groups. We’re part of the LGB community, and we count too.

i could’ve written this.

I have had relationships with women, and who knows, if I find myself single again, I don’t take turns, so I may find myself in a relationship with a man again. Or not. Would I bring him to an event? Well, if I don’t, does he get labelled as unsupportive? Or if I do, he is a plastic ally? Does he risk feeling unwelcome for a cause he supports? It is not as simple as shutting down access to spaces for people like me.

Sometimes they are straight and sometimes they are gay - so why do we represent them full time?'

I think this is the heart of the issue. Personally I'd disagree and say actually we're always bisexual but I think do think it's questionable as to where we belong. I also avoid LGB spaces because of complex experiences including the narrative that we're sluts, can't be trusted, can't do monogamy and so on. The same rubbish you see on every thread about bisexuality here.

For a long time I struggled with how to describe my sexuality. One of my Lesbian friends "joked" when we were in our late teens that you could only say bisexual if you were being a "good" bi, I.e sleeping exclusively with women and I must admit I definitely took that to heart for far too long.

I can definitely see why straight males wouldn't be wanted regardless of who they were dating but what about bisexual women dating lesbians or single ones? As bisexual women sleeping with other women doesn't make them lesbians (an argument I've had more than once with girlfriends) so where do they fit in?

I believe it was controversial when the B was added to the Sydney Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras in the 80s.

Tricky. Where do we stop, though? The connotations of being lesbian vs being a gay male are quite different in our society - so does it make sense to put the L and the G together?

Maybe part of the issue is that there just aren't bright lines. Someone mentioned a person who identified as bi despite being in a long-term heterosexual relationship because of long ago homosexual relationships, with the implication that that person wasn't "properly" bi. What is properly anything, though? Seems to me that there really are people with all kinds of sexual attractions, and enforcing purity is a dead end. What about the woman who has been in a long-term homosexual relationship, but as a student had a heterosexual dalliance? Does she get excluded from bi events for not being bi enough? Can she attend lesbian events, or is she not lesbian enough? Can she go along to lesbian events if her partner who has never touched a man takes her?

Full disclosure: I'm divorced from one long-term heterosexual relationship, but based on attraction, have always thought that, if I had somehow been born into a society where same-sex attraction was what was expected, I'd have fitted in there too, and had only homosexual relationships. For me, though I like sex, I think sexual attraction is based much more on friendship than on body specifics. I know not everybody is like that, but I think more people are than we usually acknowledge.

Maybe the question is: what are these events for? What is the community for? These days I rather mistrust the idea that any community is somewhere when one can fully relax - there being people around who disagree with you about something fundamental is, in practice, unavoidable. If an event admits only women, and all talk about sexual relations with men is avoided, is that ok? Can the bi woman attend provided she doesn't mention her male partner? Or do the women who have only ever slept with women feel betrayed if they later find out she was there?

No idea, @SkeletonBatsflyatnight , which was why I started the thread.

Or do the women who have only ever slept with women feel betrayed if they later find out she was there?

Not so many of them around !

I don't really have an answer, beyond thinking that bringing a straight partner to an LGB event is totally inappropriate.

I do still want/need space to discuss the difficulties I had embracing my sexuality growing up - how repressing my homosexual desire meant I also repressed my heterosexual desire, despite it not having that same stigma. I like to connect with L/B women and chat about our similarities and so on.

But right now I'm with a man, so obviously the dating side of these events isn't applicable to me, and even if I went to the odd event to feel at home or w/e I wouldn't bring my boyfriend - I know he feels upset if another bi woman did that as well!!!

I also agree re: gay and lesbian being different.

The 'queer' scene where I am is just gay men and women get tacked on and culture subsumed into drag/stereotypical gay male culture. Id now prefer to be amongst just L/B women, but where I am the only option for that is a night entirely populated by TIFs 😭