I think the spell is finally broken...

[Daysnconfuddled]

https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/2025/01/defending-women-from-gender-ideology-extremism-and-restoring-biological-truth-to-the-federal-government/

It’s interesting to see who is being asked to accommodate

There’s the other sex class and parts of society that can step in. Women have had two decades of abuse and being overridden.

They can present as the opposite sex if they want to and can be supported to do this...

Can I ask what you mean by "present as the opposite sex"?

Genuine question.

And is anyone on this thread is saying they should not be supported or helped to move beyond whatever rigid thinking made them believe their mind was incompatible with their sex? No. All anyone is saying is that that support cannot include cross sex privileges, which it never should have done.

As a member of the psychology community, I'm sure you must have come across other situations where one person's "solution" to their pain causes them to damage someone else. Do you just sacrifice one to the other? No. (I hope) you help the damager to find a better way, and the victim to understand that they are not obligated to endure this damage out of sone misguided idea of loyalty, guilt or moral expectation.

As a member of the psychology community, I'm also sure you have come across people, maybe genuinely damaged people, who have learned to leverage the threat or even the act of self harm to get them what they want. Clearly that's not the act of a mentally healthy person and such people deserve sympathy and help. But they also need to accept that manipulative behaviour like this is coercive and unacceptable, and that ultimately it is no one else's job to be the outsourced keeper of their emotional stability.

So again I'm not sure what your point is. Will many be put in a hard position? Yes. Should transphobia, real transphobia that manifests itself as exclusion and abuse and may feel itself enabled by this EO be stamped on hard? Yes. Should there be help and support for those misled by the transition industry? Yes.

And that is a great opportunity for your community to stand up and show a better way to deal with these feelings than a false transition, and indeed for the countless trans rights groups and organisations to get stuck in and do something concrete and meaningful that actually moves society forward in accepting and valuing the wide variety of human personalities instead of fighting against a problem they themselves inflamed by embracing the rigid and sexist concept of gender transition as the only possible solution.

It's all so depressing. And we are still being told it's our fault. How dare we not have empathy!

i haven't really studied it, but i don't recall reading anywhere in the EO saying that trans people don't exisit.

I did read that sex is real and you can't claim the opposite sex and all the rights/priveliges that come with being that sex.

Nobody is denying that trans people exist. They are, in fact, reinforcing that fact by outlining where the boundaries are, legally, of being trans.

I saw a tweet from a female detransitioner this morning saying she had received lots of messages from young women identifying as nb or as men saying they are detransing (socially, it has all been social, afaik) and wearing women's clothes again.

I have sympathy, they are obviously confused and need therapy. But why suddenly change how you dress? i am wearing jeans, socks and a heavy metal band t-shirt. I'm also wearing my Grandad's watch (it has a lovely big face so i can read it without glasses). Why can't they continue to "dress as a man" as i apparently am?

There's going to be a lot of this over the next few weeks.

@ChishiyaBat for a long time it was abuse and threats

Now this

We've been consistent, it's not a political position, it's simply no consent.

If groups in society want to work with the male sex class to create a better outcome they can.

Banned from cross sex provisions, the trans and trans ally community regroup and start creating a grass roots whole new cultural phenomenon of agender spaces with two teeny single sex cubicles and a great big mixed sex palace as a Fuck You to the conservative right. New fashions, music genres and art arise out of it. Shocking at first, then edgy, then trendy, then beloved.

ah @FlirtsWithRhinos i already lived through the 70s...i don't really need it again (all that boil in the bag cod in parsley sauce and findus crispy pancakes)

Yawn. Enjoy your hateful echo chamber under the guise of women’s rights.

The fact you probably genuinely believe this is the reason you don't see a way forward, the reason all you have is hand wringing and perfomative empathy, no belief in your own agency.

I feel very sorry for you.

@FlirtsWithRhinos My condolences to you and those who dwell within your echo chamber, I can only imagine how such rigid thinking can negatively impact your life. Sympathies 💐

then you will know we have been saying THAT for years and called all sorts and had all sorts of threats for taking that position.

So. meh.

It’s all just more of the same

If the answer is a no, no consent, it’s threats and insults

It has been going on for years.

god @Plastictrees are you 15? your last few posts are the equivalent of "... so are you" and sticking your tongue out.

You have a one sided view of things - which is that women should budge up, from what your other posts were saying - and that is it. Tell you what, why don't you ask men to budge up?

or get your trans friends to campaign for 3rd spaces. Most women here would help you with that.

Who mentioned "intersex" up there? get in the sea. First, the term is DSDs and second people with DSDs have repeatedly asked the TRAs not to drag them into their campaigning.

Aw that is sweet of you but honestly I'm ok. The women here are anything but an echo chamber.

I learn so much from different perspectives, those with whom I agree and those with whom I don't, and my own ideas refine and evolve as a result. I get to continually challenge myself about whether the things I believe might be wrong and make sure I go back to first principles regularly to make sure I'm not just regurgitating thought terminating clichés.

One lesson I've learned over my life is to look at what people do not what they say. It's hard to carry that to an anonymous board of course 😂 but that principle does help me see through the performative empathy and ask the actually important question which is "So what do we do about that?"

(Oh, and another lesson I've learned is that when someone uses my own language back at me and it's not because they are quoting me or playing catch with the idea, they've run out of arguments and are just aping my style and hoping no one notices. I'm more than happy to explain what I mean by "rigid thinking". It's part of an explanatory framework for genderism that I have been evolving over several years now. Perhaps you would like to give a little more detail about why you used the phrase and what was underpinning your thinking in applying it to me?)

'batshit'

I see.

I reserve my energy and compassion for women and girls.

I refuse to be browbeaten into being told whom I should and shouldn't care about.

I believe "empathy" is the new " be kind".

Naturally, we all understand exactly WHO is directed to have empathy for whom.

It never fucking changes.

Maybe Plastictrees is right after all. I'm hateful, batshit, and I'm going to have to admit to a secret loving of boil in the bag cod in parsley sauce.

Edit - apologies, easily distracted by mention of food. Ignore me.

My DH would kill for a Findus crispy pancake

I'm curious about being labelled right wing though. Insofar as we orient ourselves on "right" and "left" lines based on the revolutionary French parliament from 200 or so years ago....

but anyway. I'm i Germany. We have an election coming up. As per usual i use the "Wahl-o-mat" (Vote-o-mat) to see where my deeply held political beliefs line up with which parties. And as per usual i am not surprised (and people around me are definitely not surprised) that i get recommendations to vote for:

Die Linke (the left - they are approximately a splinter group from the German equivalent of Labour who went too far right, requiring a splinter group. Plus some lefties left over from the other side of the wall)
The Communist party - unfortunately never stand where i vote
and
The MLDP - the Marxist Lenninist Party of Germany. I love them. I walked past their stand once and based on my boots (docs) and t-shirt (new model army) they gave me a load of stickers and badges. Got to love stickers and badges.

Pls, someone, explain how that makes me right wing?

This isn't the case, so it's even stranger that the leadership pushed the TA agenda so hard.
In the latest Ipsos poll, 62% of Democrat voters agreed that the US had gone too far in accomodating trans people. 67% of Democrat voters agreed that MCW should not play women's sport. 54% of Democrat voters agreed that kids should not get puberty blockers.

Source was discussion on Megyn Kelly show, comes in at about 9:30 in.

What absolute and utter whiffle.

We were never allowed them, i had my first (and last) after i'd left home. Urgh.

Did love a Birds Eye chicken pie though. Still have those now and again.

But seriously: i wonder if whoever it was (I forget, also distracted by food) realises what 2nd wave feminism was all about? it wasn't all hairy legs, saggy boobs and dungarees.

And who can forget all those beautifully made-up young new romantic men/boys? (i lived on a military base, even some of the soldiers weren't above a bit of eye liner on a Saturday night, especially when they found out how much we loved it) I often think early Izzard (it's not a woman's dress, it's my dress) thought he was like Bowie - who just did whatever he liked and to hell with what people thought about it (which also led to a brief flirtation with nazis which i hated so much. He got over that, though)

ETA: forgot to mention in my previous post, i did the sort of equivalent thing when the UK election came up (got my vote back! yaay!) and i'm so right wing that despite their stance on what a woman is, on balance i had more in common with Labour. So i voted for them. HA. If I'm right wing, that makes any party i vote for right wing (although seeing what they're up to, hmm. oh shit. Hoist by my own petard)

I’m not reading that wall of text, I have a job and a life to live today - not to be spent arguing with a bunch of pseudo feminist Trump supporters who are regurgitating the same condescending phrases, just because I dared speak about empathy for those who have ‘transitioned’ under gender ideology. It’s not about ‘be kind’, it’s just basic humanity.

Those who do not have the cognitive capabilities to understand that someone is capable of concern for those people whilst also holding the belief that gender ideology is toxic, are pointless to engage with. The amount of vitriol and aggression in this thread is shameful, enjoy your little echo chamber - I am glad this is not reflective of life in the UK.

Fortunately my empathy isn’t finite.

This is mumsnet - we are mums. When you become a mum you become (usually) unconditionally full of love and protection for your child. You also get hit very hard with the biological realities of being a woman. Since we are mainly adults in age, we are going to have more life experience including more reasons to know about sexual assaults and when our sons and daughters navigate puberty and the teenage years it is very apparent the trends of what’s happening. It’s very obvious that we’re going to be realists compared to idealists. Talking about concepts is a load of cobblers as you are in the thick of it.

When it comes to children’s and women’s safety mums are not thinking about where to be in allegiance with the political parties on the left or right. We are thinking about children’s and women’s safety.