CPS change the proposed 'sex by deception re gender' legal guidance

[Chariothorses]

Following public objections, the CPS announced yesterday they have changed the proposed legal guidance on Rape and Serious Sexual Offences (RASSO), specifically the guidance on “Deception as to gender”, which can be found in Chapter 6 Consent, to 'Deception as to sex'. Rape and Sexual Offences - Chapter 6: Consent | The Crown Prosecution Service.

The outcome of the consultation is available here: Consultation on the Deception as to Gender section in the Rape and Serious Sexual Offences (RASSO) legal guidance | The Crown Prosecution Service.

summary of consultation responses here: Consultation on CPS guidance on Deception as to Gender - Summary of Responses | The Crown Prosecution Service.

There are ongoing problems re ideological capture by trans lobbyists and misogyny within the CPS so thanks to all who contributed to the changes they have reluctantly introduced.

Well, yeah, if their definition of sexual orientation is "it doesn't matter if you look like a woman and have breasts and a vagina and I didn't know until you told me" then that seems to be to be a fairly specific orientation.

i'm not quite sure what you're getting at here.

Do you mean that if a man has had surgery and passes, or thinks he does, as a woman, then a lesbian shouldn't care that he's actually a man?

Yes indeed.

And I think that's my argument. Everyone should be honest about their dealbreakers. Everyone else should respect those and it is unethical to not.

No one is obliged to disclose anything straight out of the gate they don't want to. Like, I don't have to say I'm Jewish in case I'm with someone who really wants a Christian girl, or bisexual in case a woman only wants a real sapphic partner or that I've had am abortion in case my partner thinks that's murder.

Those are all personal things that I share when I'm ready and if one of those would mean someone wouldn't want to sleep with me then they need to put that out there up front.

"If you are massively only attracted to certain chromosomes, surely you just say that early on?"

People are same sex attracted, different sex attracted, or both. I'm pretty sure that nearly everyone is upfront about bring straight, lesbian, gay or bi. The mention of chromosomes isn't needed.

Occassionalnamechanger's post aligns with the TRA strategy of refusing to create or use new terminology. Different terms are needed to refer to people who are attracted to gender rather than sex, so those open to dating TW and TM can signpost this, and TW and TM can seek them out.

There are limited numbers of people who want to date, have sex with, or have relationships ships with TW and TM. This is a difficult and sad issue for trans people to manage. However, trying to dupe people into dating, sex and relationships isn't an acceptable way of navigating this.

I don't think anyone should or shouldn't do anything. I think for a lot of people their orientation is based on what someone looks and feels like. I am pretty sure mine is. I don't look at a woman across a room and wonder what kind of gametes she produces. I look at her and think "Oh, nice hair and cute tummy" or similar.

And obviously, there are loads of things that might make me not want to sleep with her. But that's different from orientation.

I think if you don't fancy someone then you shouldn't sleep with them and should feel absolutely no shame for that and I'd argue very strongly that anyone trying to push back on that is being insanely unreasonable.

Signalbox · Yesterday 17:02

The homophobia against lesbians [or lesbophobia, if you're OK with neologisms..] in the McKinnon tweet quoted by Signalbox is so blatant and unashamed:

my sexual identity - y'know, as protected in some parts of the world by equality legislation after a long struggle for recognition, and still a death sentence in other parts of the world, whether official or an escalation of corrective rape - is a 'genital hangup'.

'Let them speak' strikes again.

@Occasionalnamechanger, you have said you are bi-sexual and your posts seem to reflect someone who doesn't really get same sex attraction when it is strongly based on one sex of the other.

Trans people don't needs to disclose their trans status. Just like people disclose their sex- based sexual orientation early on, trans people can disclose their 'pan- based' attraction early on. They can say that they only date people who are attracted to gender and have no sex-based preferences.

No, I think you're confusing sexual preference with sexual orientation. Sexual orientation is based on sex not hair.

So you're saying sexual orientation isn't based on attraction?

(I know this sounds weird and disingenuous- I promise, this is an honest and slightly confused question, and I'll go away and stop being stupid on your page soon!)

It's based on attraction to someone of a specific sex. Opposite, same, or both.

I'm attracted to the opposite sex. That's my sexual orientation. Within that, is my preference. Tall, rich, elderly, bad cough

Obviously, fair enough. You fancy who you fancy.

Anyway, I shan't keep posting. This isn't really my circus or my monkeys (as neither a trans person or a GC person) - I was just querying. I've had my question answered.

Good luck with the dating all. Hope you find the right kind of sexy gametes. 😉

Brainworm · Today 09:55

"Occasionalnamechanger you have said you are bi-sexual and your posts seem to reflect someone who doesn't really get same sex attraction when it is strongly based on one sex of the other."

This ^ maybe?

i'm not bisexual. But I have heard from several bisexual people that it's not just a free for all. if they want to sleep with a man, they want that to be a man, not a woman who looks like a man.

But I'm sure there are lots of people who feel differently.

The point is there are very many people, gay and straight, who feel repelled by the idea of the wrong sex. Hence sexual orientation and it being legally protected.

If you are massively only attracted to certain chromosomes, surely you just say that early on?

No one is "attracted to chromosomes" they are attracted to either men, women or both sexes. Trans people are people of one sex who identify as the opposite one, or as not having a particular sex's "identity" as per their sex stereotype based belief system. Their "identity" doesn't mean that their actual sex isn't relevant to others. Hope that helps.

I mean this isn't hard. "Trans women" aren't actually women, they are male. A woman is a female human being. It's just a noun, like a mare is the noun for a female horse. Why do genderists get it so back to front?

This.

I'm heterosexual. I appreciate that women are beautiful, but I don't find them sexually attractive.

That said, I only find a very small proportion of men sexually attractive.

I'm not going to say it's absolutely impossible that I could fancy an apparent 'man' who turned out to be biologically female - but there's no way I could contemplate sexual contact once I knew. The idea would repel me.

I don't think that's an unusual POV. Anyone who conceals their birth sex until some form of contact has taken place is hiding a really pivotal piece of information that would instantly result in a NO from most of their prospective partners. Not giving the chance to say no is rapey and disgraceful.

The sad, mangled attempts at constructing male genitalia on a female body make 'stealth' pretty near impossible, so the 'but post-surgery?' gotcha attempt doesn't really work in the same way as for male bodies. But even with a modified male body it's a shitty disregard of boundaries and consent. And an illegal one.

I don't think anyone should or shouldn't do anything. I think for a lot of people their orientation is based on what someone looks and feels like. I am pretty sure mine is. I don't look at a woman across a room and wonder what kind of gametes she produces. I look at her and think "Oh, nice hair and cute tummy" or similar.

But when it comes down to having sex, the ultimate destination of sexual attraction, where we're naked and hair all mussed up, then the sex of that person is what matters, not how they look when they're dolled/duded up. And when you're both naked, that's when your sex is most obvious. It's reprehensible to wait until then to reveal that you've been deceiving someone.

By all means be attracted to a 'type', but don't discount that sexual attraction exists by suggesting it's all about chromosomes. Vulvas just don't do anything for me, I wouldn't want to have sex with one, no matter what that person was wearing in the pub earlier, or how attracted I was to them if I thought they were a man. And that's fine - that's called sexual orientation.

I think in a longer relationship, even the most naive person would have inklings about the sex of the most passing trans person, and be persuaded (either by themselves, or that person) to ignore them - just like we do all the other red flags in relationships - the difference being that being a controlling cocklodger isn't a protected characteristic, and sexual orientation is.

I think the term bi-sexual refers to sex-based, not gender based attraction, but being bi-sexual could lead to some people underestimating how strongly same sex attraction can be to exclusively one sex.

I thought the term 'pan sexual' was used to describe people for whom the sex of a partner was less important than their gender presentation/identity.

I have only heard pan sexual used to refer to people attracted to different sexes and gender presentations/identities. This needs to be supplemented with panlesbian (attracted to females and males who identify as female) and transgay (attracted to males and females who identify as male).

Trans people can make it known they only date/hook up with people with pan-sexual orientations. This means they don't have to disclose anything other than their sexual orientation - which is standard practice for everyone

To Occasional’s post about his conquests
This reads as:

It’s all about me.
Do as I do.
Think as I think.

Scouring for bodies I find attractive to take. They’re mine.
If I don’t fancy a body, I let them go. I have no shame in admitting my thoughts above.

—————
Also I doubt you have had much ‘luck’ and this is a fantasy.

Trans people can make it known they only date/hook up with people with pan-sexual orientations. This means they don't have to disclose anything other than their sexual orientation - which is standard practice for everyone

Yes, I think that's fair enough. But I'd still be aware that declaring yourself to be "pansexual" which is a bit of a buzzword doesn't mean that a person wont feel violated if someone tricks them into sex by telling them a lie.

quite. See my reference to bisexuality, where if the person thinks they're sleeping with a man, they want it to be a man.

Just because you might normally include that sex in your dating pool, it doesn't mean that you've consented to sleep with that sex, that time.

It’s all about me.
Do as I do.
Think as I think.

Yeah, it's not very inclusive, is it!

Thanks for bringing up some interesting points, Occasionalnamechanger.
I think for a lot of people their orientation is based on what someone looks and feels like.

I don't think that's a 'sexual orientation', I think that's just a preference - I might find myself drawn to nice hair/cute tummy/whatever, but I'm not going to be scanning a group of men to see if any of them meet those criteria, hey he has nice hair and a cute tummy [sorry, I'm having difficulty with that concept!] he'll do, I'll go over and see if he has any plans for the night..

My sexual orientation is lesbian, so I am attracted to women, not to people with nice hair etc. And the attraction is not just sexual, there's another element, difficult to pin down, but it's something based on shared identity, as women and as lesbians.

Obvs that only kicks in if it's more than a brief encounter, nice hair and cute er...tummy? will do grand in the very short term; but only if they belong to a woman, the biological kind. Because that's my sexual orientation, within which I may - or may not, don't want to rule anyone in or anyone out - have certain preferences.

Does that make sense??

"But I'd still be aware that declaring yourself to be "pansexual" which is a bit of a buzzword doesn't mean that a person wont feel violated if someone tricks them into sex by telling them a lie."

I agree. I guess, at least, it brings to mind that the person might be trans.

I have met many transmen who do pass but once their trans status has been shared, I have spotted 'tells'. I haven't knowingly met any transwoman for whom I haven't at least had a strong inkling they were trans.

Kweer Feory innit.

“definition of sexual orientation is "it doesn't matter if you look like a woman and have breasts and a vagina and I didn't know until you told me"

Blimey. So if it is an implanted cavity made from an inside out penis or cut from digestive tract, that is quite good enough for you then as long and the rest of the body ‘looks like a woman?’

Great that is what you consider a woman is. Body parts that you want to fuck depending on your mood is what this comes across as.