CPS change the proposed 'sex by deception re gender' legal guidance

[Chariothorses]

Following public objections, the CPS announced yesterday they have changed the proposed legal guidance on Rape and Serious Sexual Offences (RASSO), specifically the guidance on “Deception as to gender”, which can be found in Chapter 6 Consent, to 'Deception as to sex'. Rape and Sexual Offences - Chapter 6: Consent | The Crown Prosecution Service.

The outcome of the consultation is available here: Consultation on the Deception as to Gender section in the Rape and Serious Sexual Offences (RASSO) legal guidance | The Crown Prosecution Service.

summary of consultation responses here: Consultation on CPS guidance on Deception as to Gender - Summary of Responses | The Crown Prosecution Service.

There are ongoing problems re ideological capture by trans lobbyists and misogyny within the CPS so thanks to all who contributed to the changes they have reluctantly introduced.

Here is Willoughby’s take on it all. Look familiar? The points seem to be doing the rounds.

x.com/indiawilloughby/status/1869199298006532524?s=46

“The legislation that is quietly being implemented by the UK Establishment against trans people right now by this Labour Government is truly horrific. Trans people in the UK must now declare their birth sex to a partner before sex - or face prosecution for rape. Outing themselves from the off. Degrading. This follows Labour’s announcement last week that even trans women who have had full sex reassignment surgery will go into the male prison estate if convicted of a sex crime. Which consensual sex in its common understanding would be. This almost guarantees every trans woman now sent to a UK prison will be raped. To hive a real world scenario, if a woman who is trans was at a Christmas party tonight, gets drunk, and ends up having sex with a guy - both parties lost in the moment but consenting - she could be thrown into a male jail and treated as a sex offender if the guy subsequently finds out her past and retrospectively withdraws his ‘consent’ because the woman didn’t tell him she was trans at the time. Even though there is nothing shameful about being trans, and trans is not a disease. It’s actually a protected characteristic. If you have a GRC, you legally do not have to declare your medical history to anyone. Where is the dignity? These two changes in UK law put trans women in particular in serious jeopardy - both in the bedroom with a partner, and in the prison system. It’s also incredibly stigmatising and dehumanising - with the clear inference that trans people having sex with c i s people are frauds, and that it is dirty and wrong. Utterly barbaric and inhumane @YvetteCooperMP @ShabanaMahmood . Written purely from the perspective of c i s people being ‘tricked’, with absolutely zero regard for the respect or safety of trans people.”

I was discussing this thread with a friend and he sent me this:

@ButterflyHatched
Although I can be glib, I do have sympathy for your plight and what you have been through. Most people don't like seeing other people in pain.

The one thing I don't get is we gender criticals have been told people with gender dysphoria must have gender affirming care reassignment etc... to make them happy. Yet you've had the lot if I understand correctly and you don't seem happy? It might be that you are less unhappy than before, or a million other things. But you aren't selling me the dream and expectations of what we are told is the best course of action with the still unhappyness I get from your posts.

Did you get all you expected from your transition?

Tricked, dirty wrong, horrific, degrading, stigmatising, dehumanising.

India, of course, is another tw who must be speaking about someone else. Because the whole world and his wife knows India's sex.

Well, no. Remember India is a woman- let that penetrate !

https://amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jan/10/woman-gemma-watts-posed-boy-sexually-assault-girls-police

TBH this case (and the very rare but similar ones involving a situation where someone has used their trans identity to abuse vulnerable girls) did not need this new law to prosecute.

It definitely would have been an added charge but it was the systemic or prolific nature of the abuse that resulted in their prosecution .

In a more common (drunken/ casual/ romantic) situation, I don’t see how a court of law could prove beyond reasonable doubt that a trans woman or man had not disclosed their identity before or during the sex act.

So I don’t think India or @ButterflyHatched have to worry about their ‘trans woman done for rape’ scenario.🤷🏽‍♀️

They are angry because they have just discovered that the other person's attitude to them is "you are fit for a fuck but not fit to be worthy of my honesty and candour or to be allowed to make fully informed decisions about this relationship."
So not transphobic, no. Just jerkphobic.

Excellently put! Can I just add that anyone who thinks 'stealthing' has any place in a healthy sexual relationship is utterly deluded. I feel sick that people are advising others to be sexually abusive in this way.

The Trade Descriptions Act 1968 (c. 29) is an act of the Parliament of the United Kingdom which prevents manufacturers, retailers or service industry providers from misleading consumers as to what they are spending their money on.

I want a product that is nut free, no hidden nuts, not products with the nuts removed, a product that never had nuts in the first place.

Please don’t try and sell me a nut free product with no warning that nuts may have been present in the manufacturing process.

Thank you.

Second this!

I have read this thread horrified that Butters can have such visceral fear of men and still have no empathy for the situation of the sex Butters identifies as and their need to protect themselves from the male sex.

I am also curious as to the need for honesty in intimate relationships where transmen are concerned. If a transman is attracted to a biological man would they act as Butters recommends and try to pass without disclosing their natal sex? I would have thought that was unlikely to succeed and potentially dangerous. It would seem to me that Butters is taking advantage of a one way street only likely to be available to transwomen.

I am a natal woman though and cannot speak for gay men. Apart from saying that I think that they are as deserving of honesty as anyone else.

There's been a lot of focus on hypothetical situations involving men, gay straight and trans, in this discussion, when we already have real-life proof of lesbians being put under pressure to have sex with men who identify as women and also as lesbians - the horrible 'Cotton Ceiling' trope.
And we already have real-life reports of lesbians finding themselves in the kind of situation ButterflyHatched worries about for transwomen - realising late in the day that the person they've hooked up with is not the sex they thought.

In the case of lesbians, the threat of violence is more likely to come from the other side, from the 'deceiver' rather than the 'deceived', so to speak.

I must admit I'm still trying to get my head around a transman attracted to a biological man, WaterThyme.... I think I'd need a flowchart or a diagram or something ... a woman who identifies as and presents as a man, wants to have sex with a biological male..?
So this is the equivalent of men who identify as women and then want to have sex with biological women?

Dead?

Yes @MarieDeGournay it is the equivalent of @ButterflyHatched for women. As the case of women who identify as men is often forgotten I thought it worth a look.

Two possibilities - the woman who identifies and presents as a man is attracted to men or women. Let’s call her Moth.

Various court cases have established that Moth would be guilty of sex by deception by having sex with a woman without disclosing Moth’s natal sex.

If Moth identifies as a gay man Moth will have to decide, like Butters, whether to keep a male partner in the dark. Dishonesty would put Moth at risk from Moth’s partner. I am guessing that Moth would be less likely to pass during sex and be more vulnerable physically.

My point is that transmen aren’t likely to get away with concealing their natal sex and are more vulnerable than transwomen.

I agree with others that dishonesty is no basis for a relationship.

“This language - 'do not have a vagina' 'don't have breasts' - is bizarre reality denial and is actively offensive and exclusionary to other women who have undergone identical treatments to us in order to help their own bodies align with their own self-image.”

Eh? I was pondering this and wanted to come back to it.

Which woman are having fake vaginas created for their ‘own self image’?

And there is a significant difference between women getting breast implants to enhance what is already there and a male getting breast implants. This is just another forced teaming attempt.

“bizarre reality denial” indeed.

I always find the discussion around young female people who believe they are male but engaging in male homosexual sex very sad.

Without a prostate this type of penetrative sex is not balanced. It is effectively making that female person a receptacle. And it is misogynistic in nature.

I am sure long time regulars will remember the male poster who told us that all teenagers need to learn about anal sex because the ‘stigma’ needs to be banished. And that the harms for female people should not be mentioned because of that stigma? I mean, it was like he had no fucking idea that even female people’s anal tissue was more delicate and susceptible to significant injury, and that female people were then highly prone to significant life time bowel incontinence. And why should female people be misinformed about anal sex??? To centre male people.

And speaking of body differences, it is important to remember that male people, even with suspended puberty, genetically have advantages in their skeletal leverage points and the different muscle composition. When compared to a female body of the same dimensions and weight will likely have physical advantage even without a full testosterone puberty.

There is a person who has interacted with Willoughby's post that posts pics of themselves in black and white telling people to 'cope' because to them they 'pass'. Well, except in pics where they are wearing face masks over the lower part of their face which then brings the focus to their brow and forehead.

Either way the rhetoric being used on twitter really does resemble what we have seen on these threads.

Butterfly

Instead, the CPS has seen fit to release guidance that actually makes it easier to harm trans people, and expressly provided listed examples.

No it hasn't, unless you are unilaterally redefining the meaning of harm and turnout around. The guidelines are to protect unsuspecting sexual partners, who, had they known, not had sex with you

The law now expressly protects non-trans people who abuse trans people they don't know (or 'don't know') are transgender. It pretty much provides a roadmap for men to get away with raping us by raising counter-claims.

I suppose I can see how that could happen, but it's not intentional. The intent is to give protection and redress to sexual assault victims, who have been conned into having sex with a member of a sex, which they would otherwise not have wanted.

But according to you, sod them, as long as you get your rocks off, that's all that matters, not another human prop in your life's performance.

Don't deny the existence of trans people, so don't deny your trans status before sexual and romantic relationships, this just leads to trans erasure.

Transmen are not a potential danger to men in the same way that Transwomen are a potential danger to women. Many gay men don't really want Transmen at their orgies/gay spaces though. See the 1st person account attached.

I can't help but question the motives of her 'friend' who took her there.

I agree Flowchart

But again we are also seeing the ramifications of a group being told that society must comply with their philosophical belief that they are who they say they are. It makes a vulnerable group even more vulnerable. All because a narcissistic tendency to believe that people have to comply with that person’s beliefs and that anyone who doesn’t ‘hates them’.

Personally, the chance of internal injury for those female people is high and simply never acknowledged.

Ffs. This is what online trans propaganda has done. This woman, whose only concession was wearing male clothes, took her top off at a gay orgy and got terribly upset because nobody wanted to shag her.

She had only been on testosterone for two months, and was already getting weird looks from people, but thought acting masculine and wearing men's clothes would do the job.

She 'knows' she's a man.

Edited to add this from butters

You are once again displaying negative attitudes toward trans people or transness in general. There is a name for that.

The entire gay orgy was doing what butters accused me of doing, Neatly demonstrating the rampant homophobia that underpins gender ideology.

And, of course, the entire statement is gaslighting. I'm telling you I will base my sexual relationships on stealth and deception, and advise others to do likewise - but it's your negative attitude to that's the problem !

This is what being untethered from reality does to these young, vulnerable people. Of course she is 'pre top and bottom sugery' which makes it sound like an inevitable step, despite the huge risks of phalloplasty.