CPS change the proposed 'sex by deception re gender' legal guidance

[Chariothorses]

Following public objections, the CPS announced yesterday they have changed the proposed legal guidance on Rape and Serious Sexual Offences (RASSO), specifically the guidance on “Deception as to gender”, which can be found in Chapter 6 Consent, to 'Deception as to sex'. Rape and Sexual Offences - Chapter 6: Consent | The Crown Prosecution Service.

The outcome of the consultation is available here: Consultation on the Deception as to Gender section in the Rape and Serious Sexual Offences (RASSO) legal guidance | The Crown Prosecution Service.

summary of consultation responses here: Consultation on CPS guidance on Deception as to Gender - Summary of Responses | The Crown Prosecution Service.

There are ongoing problems re ideological capture by trans lobbyists and misogyny within the CPS so thanks to all who contributed to the changes they have reluctantly introduced.

I'm certainly aware of the journey I've taken through life and what has been apparent to me from a young age. The problems and practicalities I face today are not things faced by men. I do not experience all the things that all other women experience, but anyone who knows me would find the notion that I am to be classified as a man to be completely ridiculous.

ROFL - so what you're saying is, you think you're a woman because you presume you have a trans brain, which is different from both women's and men's brains? Where's the logic in that?

So your body obviously doesn't make you a woman, and your brain doesn't make you a woman as you've agreed above, yet you persist in trying to persuade us that you are.

If you are in denial about the reality of your sexed body you should not be trying to insert it into someone else, or insert someone else's body into it. In my opinion. You should be getting therapy.

Apparently in a loving, respectful and intimate relationship, a surgically created body part never needs to be mentioned. Because no person on this earth should now expect that the person they are about to be inserting their penis in or have a penis inserted into them to be having sex with genuine body parts.

It is only about the ‘good times’ that those bodies bring. It is all about the utility of that body for sex.

Mind you, it is highly concerning that a male person doesn’t even feel or taste the difference between an inverted penis / inserted colon or whatever and a real penis. I would probably state that that male person was vulnerable in that position.

😆
Alison, your succint, plain-spoken statements stand in sharp contrast to the grandiloquent waffle elsewhere!
Not a word wasted!

It's a recurring theme with TRAs.

We had one, I can't remember if it was BH, who claimed affinity with an infertile poster because they, the man, couldn't get pregnant either.

The woman was horribly upset.

I said this upthread but I don’t think Butters responded.

It really can’t be that difficult, before having sex with someone, to discover their views on puberty blockers / women’s rights to single sex spaces / JK Rowling. If they’re pro the first one & anti the other two, then what’s stopping Butters being honest with them?

Or as somebody else said, there are hordes of venues nowadays that have the trans flag all over them. Surely the obvious place to find pro-trans partners.

Yes. But being ‘pro trans rights’ still doesn’t mean that person understands that they may be about to have sex with someone who is the opposite sex to what they have been led to believe. Sadly.

Why thank you. <bows and twirls>

I wanted to quibble with your point about being in a female body would make life much easier for you- that’s not been my experience at all. My body has let me down repeatedly and caused me immense difficulty, despite also carrying two babies. From massive blood loss, continence issues, prolapse surgery, lumps in boobs, contraception complications, HRT, gynaecology problems- there is nothing convenient about the female body.

I’m really behind, but had been pleased to hear you sounding so much calmer and rational this morning. Then I read the post above and you jumped the shark again.

Everything you said is already the case for female rape victims. It is extremely difficult to raise a case against rapists. We are extremely vulnerable to abuse and unlikely to see justice. We have to choose between being cloistered or sexually active and vulnerable except, guess what? We are vulnerable eve if cloistered.

Round about this point my rage grew uncontainable and I could no longer wait to catch up with the rest of the thread.

Everything you worry about is women’s current experience, and that’s why we don’t want fucking men in our spaces! They are a bloody liability, even and perhaps especially the ones who think they are good guys! 🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬

I know. But surely Butters would feel safe in being up front with them, even if it led to a polite rejection.

I would hope so Empress, but I don't have much confidence in that.

And do you remember the couple of lesbians who were so scared of rejection from their group that they ended up going through unwanted sex with a male because they feared that it would get around that they 'rejected them'. I would hope that any person who said no would not have their rejection used against them, but sadly, we know some people would. Because when those lesbians did tell their friends, they lost those friends any way because they confessed they were traumatised by the sex they had.

It is very very concerning, isn't it?

Scenario:
Someone who believes that TWAW finds out that the person they thought was a woman was actually a transwoman after they had sex. They still believe that TWAW but feel uncomfortable that the transwoman wasn't upfront beforehand. Sex would have still been consented to with the full knowledge of the trans history, it's the fact that the partner hid it that's the problem.

Is this person transphobic?

Oh God, I’d forgotten about that.

No. I'm not saying that. I'm saying that we should be humane and considerate to people who are trying their best with what they have even if their bodies don't look the same as ours, and I'm saying that can be done while also being conscious of and careful with the effect that doing so can have on other people who will find it difficult to accept them as they are.

Basically we are coming in anyway, get over it.

It is a horrific thing to have read.

But, I fully understand how it can happen. When you overhear a group of young teen lesbians telling each that they have to accept ‘girl dick’ and they also have to accept surgically inserted cavities as ‘vaginas’ otherwise they are transphobic. Then you read post after post from the poster on these threads saying that transphobes are the only ones who care what sex a person’s body is you understand that there are quite a few groups more ‘vulnerable’ to the group we are led to believe are ‘most vulnerable’.

There are vulnerable groups who will be very much harmed from the attitudes we are seeing from this poster’s posts.

And the advice that this poster then gives to young people starts to really tick the red flag boxes.

It's a recurring theme with TRAs.

It is.

We had one, I can't remember if it was BH, who claimed affinity with an infertile poster because they, the man, couldn't get pregnant either.

I recall that too.

The woman was horribly upset.

As she absolutely would be. Gotta love that empathy and compassion that is demanded but is always one way only. Zero empathy, compassion, understanding or consideration for women and girls as shown earlier by the we are coming into your spaces anyway.

I also recall being lectured on here by a man whose friend was a TW about how dreadful we all were and how said TW would give anything to menstruate like women do and how dare we complain about it and us doing so had reduced said TW to tears.

However, the bar for showing no compassion and making women's, or indeed a particular poster's trauma, all about themself has been set very high by Butterfly on this and recent threads.

No it doesn't there's no mention of transphobia in the law.
It's simple it doesn't matter how you identify or present, the only relevant facts are your biological sex and if you've been honest about it.
The law doesn't target transwomen.
The law treats a transperson who lies about their biological sex in exactly the same way as everyone else who lies about their sex.
This law doesn't give a rapist an excuse to rape a transwomen.
The law doesn't say anyone's feelings are more important than transpeople it priorities informed consent over the feelings of transpeople.
Wanting to know the sex of an intimate partner isnt transphobia or hate.
Someone not believing that a transwomen is a woman is not transphobic.
Someone not wanting to have sex with a transwomen is not transphobic.
The law is a good law that has been made better by denighing transpeople the right to rape/sexually assaulte men and women by lieing about their sex (same as everyone else).
If you don't like the law campaign to change it but you'll have to explain exactly why you think that you should have the right to lie to people so you can sexually assault them and why your self perception is more important than someone else bodily autonomy. I very much doubt that you'll get very far with your campaign as people don't like sexual predators trying to get a free pass to sexually assault anyone' they feel like.

So your position is that non-passing TW should be able to use female single-sex spaces if they are trying their best (to pass?) but you wouldn’t personally use them (if you were a non-passing TW) because you wouldn’t want to frighten / upset women? So basically it all boils down to what the TW wants and actual women should just do their best to accommodate any perceived man who has decided what’s best for them is to use the ladies?

Quite.

Vibes of a vagina is just a hole.

From www.healthline.com/health/mental-health/high-functioning-sociopath

*People who have been diagnosed with antisocial personality disorder (ASPD) are sometimes called sociopaths. They engage in behaviors that typically harm others for the benefit of themselves.

A “sociopath” has little regard for another person’s emotions, rights, or experiences. They lack remorse for their actions, and they act in ways that show no regard for others, including lying, cheating, and manipulating.*

If transwomen claims to be either a woman or female, THEY ARE LIEING about their sex
If a transman claims to be a man or male, THEY ARE LIEING about their sex.
It doesn't matter what surgeries or drugs that you've had/taken you can't change your sex it's a physical impossibility.
It's that simple don't lie about your sex to intimate partners and you won't break the law or be a sexual predator committing a sexual offence

A fuck hole. Because there is no other purpose for it except to insert objects into.

I also recall being lectured on here by a man whose friend was a TW about how dreadful we all were and how said TW would give anything to menstruate like women do and how dare we complain about it and us doing so had reduced said TW to tears.

On another thread they are discussing the different types of AGP. This fits the description of the TW you mention.

• Physiologic autogynephilia: arousal to fantasies of body functions specific to people regarded as female

@ButterflyHatched
I want to try and make a point in good faith. So I'm going to try and do it step by step and give you the benefit of the doubt where our world outlook differs.

I want to avoid putting words in your mouth and strawmanning you.
If I was to summarise what I believe you are saying as the below would you think that was a fair respresentation?

You are a woman and female. You body may not have started out as female, but with all the modifications you are now. You are just as much a woman as any other woman. Because the law being discussed doesn't treat you the same as other women your transness is being discriminated against.
Does that sound fair summation?

On page 18 at 14:19 ( forgive me I just caught up on a few pages ) you said this:
The law says that a trans woman who earnestly believes she is engaging in consensual sex with someone who perceives her to be a woman in line with her daily presentation is a sex criminal if that person secretly harbours transphobic views and hasn't made them clear to her.

Do you not see how that person secretly harbours transphobic views and hasn't made them clear could also be from the other point of view that person secretly harbours trans status and hadn't made that clear?

It's my belief that you believe that you are a woman/female.
Not everyone shares that belief, but there are many beliefs in life that people are strongly opposed on. That's fine. But you also have to understand and acknowledge that some people have very strong sexual preferences. Some people have much more fluid sexual preferences. Both are fine.

If you want you gender and sex respected as inate and at the very core of your being you also have to respect that some people's sexual preference and wants are just as core to their being as your identity is to you.
To call that inate sexuality transphobic views is to deny the other person the respect that you yourself want. The only logical solution is that both people should get the same respect from each other. You can't call someone transphobic just because they don't want what goes against their inate sexuality.

You know what would solve this conflict where you secretly harbour trans status fromn the other person, and they secretly harbour transphobic views from you? Talking about it. Once you tell them your secret you will find out if they secretly aren't sexually interested in you. You don't even have to make it about you, you could ask some off hand questions well in advance to try and gague their reaction. You have a woman's brain after all don't you?

Very true. And very weird when you think about it.