Could we ban "transvestigating" threads on here?

[Christinapple]

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5225715-ilona-maher

This one for example. Transvestigating is an informal term given to when people play detective and try to determine if a given person (usually a woman) is transgender or not from how they look e.g. photos.

I've seen it more than a few times on Twitter anytime a woman who is tall or muscular or "masculine looking" appears. Quite often, women are wrongly mistaken for being trans.

As well as being transphobic, IMO this harms all women and reinforces stereotypes of what men/women should look like. And the idea of obsessing over people's appearances like this just doesn't sit well with me.

I never felt the need to "transvestigate" before TWAW made me.

Oh joy Chris and butters on the same thread

our cup runneth over!

Or before the BBC (and most of the media) stopped telling us the sex of murder and rape suspects. But of course, the two are linked.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · Today 08:32

I think Maher is a great example of how, in real life, we can always tell.
She's obviously huge and muscular and powerful and could pick Owen Jones up with one hand and shove him into the nearest bin without even grunting,

Oh, if only!

Well, if someone passes then I won't know, so that's that (I don't think I've ever mistaken a woman for a transwoman though, once she moves or speaks).

But lots of transwomen don't pass (fine by me as I don't agree with people damaging their health to conform to unrealistic aspirations of femininity) and it's not very clear what you expect from us in that case. Pretend we don't know? Why? Transness is currently very much celebrated, so why would you want to treat it as a dirty secret?

Gender is just a label and I don't think declaring sex matters on threads but being genuine does. No men can comment on how they have breastfed, for example. Also, there's no point men posting photos dressed in stereotypical feminine clothes to ask about feedback on a dress as they're men. Likewise, male behaviour is always male behaviour, it should not be blamed on women.

As long as everyone is honest, there's nothing to question. Unfortunately we know there are those who want ideology to be be followed by everyone!

Credits to Grizelda Cartoons

But lots of transwomen don't pass (fine by me as I don't agree with people damaging their health to conform to unrealistic aspirations of femininity) and it's not very clear what you expect from us in that case.

It is quite clear what is expected of us. We are required to pretend they are women. The fact we both know otherwise and still have to do it just heightens the arousal.

Yep.

Never read such a hypocritical OP by any poster - it even tops @Christinapple's usual standard of doublethink.

If transactivists who enjoy shouting at, swearing at and hitting women hadn't banged on about "transwomen are women" we wouldn't be second guessing ourselves.

It's not women or feminists who cause the suspicion of women such as the frankly gorgeous Ilona - it's fucking transactivists who bully women to deny the reality we see.

Have I misunderstood this post? I read 'a worldview that revolves around reciting a phrase built upon smug self-satisfaction' to mean genderism. It revolves around smug phrases such as TWAW, right side of history, all identities are valid, the future is trans, rape terfs to death and so on for hours.

Women's rights defenders don't need to rely on a bank of catchphrases; the facts of human life demonstrate our position.

This thread has rather satisfyingly crystallised for me something I often think in response to "concerns" like these. The OP rolls out this metaphorical red carpet for us on which we readily present our arguments, without any meaningful challenge or rebuttal, as they step back quietly for the performance. Every so often, the challenger interjects a bit of hyperbole, strawmanning or an ad hominem that shines the metaphorical spotlight rather beautifully on the logic, stats and empathy on display.

In this particular case, I've actually had the lurker-experience - the thread they refer to did initially make me feel a bit uncomfortable, and I avoided posting on it: now, while I like it no more than I did, I have a far, FAR better sense (I originally wrote "understanding", but that's not right - I always understood it, but now, I kind of feel it much more deeply) of why it is, regrettably, understandable - and, arguably, necessary - to our battle to uphold our rights.

And of the utter hypocrisy of this movement. We'd (posters on this very thread - feminists) made such progress in countering gendered stereotypes and standards until this ideology forced us back into attending to them... and it relishes condemning us for doing so. I mean, I'd say it was a patriarchal masterstroke, but the lack of awareness of irony and nuance evident here makes me wonder if that's a little generous...

'a worldview that revolves around reciting a phrase built upon smug self-satisfaction'

if this is a dig at the ‘adult human female’ phrase then i think you’ll find its a phrase built upon biological fact

Why has the other thread on Ilona Mayer been taken down I wonder, but this one stand?

I am referring to the 'we can always tell' mantra being used to short-circuit any attempt to engage with the widely varying range of lived experiences that trans people can have; some of which can heavily overlap with the experiences of other victims of patriarchical oppression who are perceived as female by society.

We can tell someone's sex by looking at them, 99% of the time. Their experiences do not make them whichever sex they are. Sex is a biological category.

And male people co-opting womanhood, women's words, spaces and facilities, or claiming to have women's experiences are all acts of oppression.

I think the word you were looking for is 'woman', Butterfly.

"....heavily overlap with the experiences of other victims of patriarchical oppression who are perceived as female by society". 😂😂

That'll be women. The sex who births 100% of all the babies born in the world since time immemorial. Reality is soo transphobic.

God forbid women be allowed to talk about men pretending to be women!

I think you would find very little overlap, if you were remotely interested. Haven't seen any reports of men-who-say-they-are women being routinely expected to act as housekeeper, laundress, nanny, cook, driver, diary manager and host without acknowledgement or thanks. Neither do I see them complaining of being overlooked and underpaid at work, treated as less competent and more stupid than the other men. If these things were happening to them, you can bet your life they'd be complaining very loudly.

I do see them complaining of sexual harassment, mainly when they aren't getting any - this in itself highlights the disparity between women's experiences and TiMs'. Then there's the whole business of menarche, menstruation, pregnancy, miscarriage, birth and infant care, then menopause: defining features of almost every woman's life which cause difficulties in a male-run world, which TiMs will never share nor fully understand.

Were you to bother to think carefully about this, you may also find that the patriarchal oppression inflicted on 'trans women' is not sexism but homophobia. Much of the patriarchy is threatened and/or disgusted by what it sees as betrayal of 'masculine' values. It doesn't think too highly of women, either: it despises us but it's terrified of your lot.

There's no overlap. Womens experience of oppression is never going to be the same as a man who use the experience as validation.

That's assuming men treat women the same as they treat men who want to be women. I dont think they do.

Except there's not a woman alive who can just go, er hold up, I'm not really a woman - ta da!

🙄

That's assuming men treat women the same as they treat men who want to be women. I dont think they do.

Indeed. The "you can't tell" myth is central to propping up this claim though.

I know what a woman and a man is and that they exist and can be identified, but can there be a short definition of a man who says he's a woman or a woman who says she's a man beyond a label of wanting to be different?
(Wanting to change gender exists, but there's never defined steps or an end point?)
So I don't understand the material reality behind the line, "trans women exist".

It could be seen as a form of emotional manipulation. Catastrophising normal sex recognition into a manipulative "you're erasing our existence". Trying to wedge into the public consciousness that TW / NB etc must be validated & prioritised at every possible opportunity - pronouns, language, demands etc - all taking precedence over the rights of women and even over the need to safeguard children.

It's been remarkably successful to date with institutions falling over themselves to pander in the face of #nodebate. But now the game is up with most people recognising that there is a "conflict of rights" / demands and that what's happening to children is unforgivable.
So the emotional manipulation will escalate as it's not about reality and vulnerability - its about power and control over others.