Could we ban "transvestigating" threads on here?

[Christinapple]

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5225715-ilona-maher

This one for example. Transvestigating is an informal term given to when people play detective and try to determine if a given person (usually a woman) is transgender or not from how they look e.g. photos.

I've seen it more than a few times on Twitter anytime a woman who is tall or muscular or "masculine looking" appears. Quite often, women are wrongly mistaken for being trans.

As well as being transphobic, IMO this harms all women and reinforces stereotypes of what men/women should look like. And the idea of obsessing over people's appearances like this just doesn't sit well with me.

Turns out female essence is for sale https://www.amazon.co.uk/Vogel-Vries-Female-Essence-30ml/dp/B003OJ56J4

It apparently soothes irritated moods which is apt because fuck me I’m all out of patience with one poster here. Maybe I should buy some as it’s the only way I’d acquire a ‘female essence’.

you know who did a lot of that? Michel fucking Foucault.

Most of the issues you identify are US problems. Why on earth are you pleading with British women to do something about them? We're an ocean away and they aren't our problems. You should be on US forums and boards issuing these pleas, not Mumsnet. Here we're tackling the issues of our own very different political situation and culture and thankfully we're making some measurable progress, as witness the ban on the use of puberty blockers to treat gender confusion/distress in children below the age of majority.

Since the subject of Nazis and the destruction of books from Magnus Hirschfeld's library was raised, do remember what the man who collaborated with Hirschfeld to perform some of the first 'sex change' surgeries was a Nazi who continued his career of experiments on human beings in Dachau.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erwin_Gohrbandt

You've missed the memo NotAtMyAge it's all our fault. Another bizarre strand of logic from t'other side - we are so powerful on here we are the reason Trump was elected, Cass came to the conclusions she did, etc., etc., and yet we are also so lacking in power that we are just whistling in the wind and will soon find ourselves on the wrong side of history in the Brave New World of trans trumps all.

I found all the talk of trans people and Nazi Germany rather interesting, and spent some time on Google. There's not a lot of information, but transvestites (as they were called then) were persecuted and sent to the camps.

However, it's hard to fully separate out exactly what happened. For example, I read about one transwoman who identified as being straight. For clarification, they were a male who identified as a woman attracted to men. As far as the Nazis were concerned he was a gay man. Gay men were also arrested and imprisoned.

I also read one eye witness account who claims the guards reserved the worst treatment for transwomen. They then described a TW being forced to strip naked, humiliated and then drowned in a latrine.
Whilst that is horrendous, and no-one should have suffered that, it's really disrespectful to imply that this is somehow worse than what happened to other groups of people. Who were also forced to strip naked, humiliated and murdered in a variety of ways.

And unlike the Jews who were considered to be Jewish whether they believe or not, and weren't allowed to convert or anything else. Transpeople could (im not saying they should have to, but they could) present as their natal sex in public.

Some transvestites were persecuted and sent to camps, some just had their transvestite passes withdrawn by the police and had to dress and present as their birth sex. If they were heterosexual and middle class they might well have been okay. If they were working class or involved in prostitution, not so much.

Homosexuals on the other hand were sent to the camps regardless of class, and often worked to death or subjected to experimentation.

Thanks @DeanElderberry you've explained my point better than I managed!

Some of my family members survived the camps. Haddy.

You might want to read further about what happened to many women and their newly borns for example. Although it will be very disturbing.

The families of survivors do not make the Holocaust into an individual suffering and grief competition about worst treatment. Everyone has their own story.

What is your source for this information?

Because I read something recently attempting to verify the truth of these claims that trans people were specifically targeted by the Nazis, and as far as the writer was able to ascertain, the only "trans people" who were murdered by the Nazis were people who would have been considered gay.

Cross dressing was quite common among SS officers.

Thanks @Clabony I've read extensively about the subject, it's a special interest of mine so I am well aware what would have happened. I wasn't trying to make it into a Grief competition, in fact I was meaning too do the opposite.

The persecution of the trans community is only just starting to come to light though.

I would check your sources very carefully because trans activists are well known for rewriting history.

The persecution of the trans community is only just starting to come to light though.

there's a surprise!

Yes there's a lot of claims, and counter claims about who was persecuted and why. That's kind of why I mentioned a lot of TW being seen as being gay men.

There's a whole book of photos of SS men dressed as women because it was so common!

I'm well aware of that!

You've got a bloody nerve accusing anyone of Holocaust denial after you have repeatedly trivialised the Holocaust. You should be ashamed of yourself.

I didn't say that you implied that! Ffs!

Unless you're the eyewitness I mentioned. Which is unlikely Unless you're around 100!

ETA: no one here has denied the Holocaust happened.

If a man tells us he is a woman, should we simply take his word for it and let him into our spaces?

@ButterflyHatched Have you decided on your answer yet?

Accusing women posting here of holocaust denial is (yet) another abhorrent and untrue accusation by ButterflyHatched.

Suggest you read up what happened in the Deeming Pesutto case, I’m a little surprised MN are continuing to let you throw around these false accusations.

Thank you MissScarlet.

I wonder if @Christinapple meant that no one was allowed to transvestigate someone like this ‘woman’?

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5229300-not-our-crime-yet-another-violent-man-claiming-to-be-a-woman

@ButterflyHatched
Who exactly has engaged in Holocaust denial on this thread?
"Several other posters" were your precise words.
Quote the posts.
That should be easy for you to do, you seem so sure. You've repeated the statement several times now.
Where is it?

Many transvestites were Nazi Party members or Officers in the 1930s and 1940s. Information long in the public doman.

It was big recreational thing within the Nazi Party. Well known to those who know the history of the period. It's not newly discovered as claimed.

The "transvestites" in the death camps were in fact Gay Men, some of whom dressed as the opposite sex and Dean has explained this accurately upthread.
Trans in modern day speak as Butters claims was NOT against the rewritten Protocol in Nazi Germany. Because many Nazi men were into dressing up as women and indulged openly and without persecution.

To claim otherwise is to deny the persecution of Gay Men by Nazis in the Holocaust.

Incidentally, Ernst Rohm a leading Nazi, was ordered to be murdered by Hitler, when it was discovered that Rohm was gay.

There were no Section 9 "women" or "transwomen" in Nazi Germany. The British GRA simply did not exist in Nazi Germany in the 1930/ 40's.

To try and crowbar in a different narrative is not an accurate reflection of the history of Gay Men. In my view it is a form of Holocaust denial.

Women who did not fit with the Nazi stereotype of breeding or who were outspoken politically, were also sent to the camps. Roma, disabled, sick, all sorts of people, were sent to the camps along with Jews. The women of FWR already know this.

The "stuffing us into ovens" narrative pushed by a poster on this thread, is dishonest and shameful. To put it mildly.

But all this discussion is a derail from Butter's intial posts about identity and stealth and sex by way of deception of the other party. A criminal offence.

Top post, Clabony.