Could we ban "transvestigating" threads on here?

[Christinapple]

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5225715-ilona-maher

This one for example. Transvestigating is an informal term given to when people play detective and try to determine if a given person (usually a woman) is transgender or not from how they look e.g. photos.

I've seen it more than a few times on Twitter anytime a woman who is tall or muscular or "masculine looking" appears. Quite often, women are wrongly mistaken for being trans.

As well as being transphobic, IMO this harms all women and reinforces stereotypes of what men/women should look like. And the idea of obsessing over people's appearances like this just doesn't sit well with me.

So, by that mouthful you mean someone who doesn't entirely "pass"?

Just trying to understand. After all, it is directly related to the question posed in the very first post on this thread.

Errrm no thankyou, I don't believe humans have to merely 'contend with' health issues they are born with when treatments exist.

Biology is an active, dynamic set of interlinked, mutable systems which can be adjusted - not a singular, static divine state.

@ButterflyHatched please stop using 'cis'.

You know that many, many women on this board detest the term.

By persisting in using it you are demonstrating a crashing lack of respect, which makes me think that there is no point whatever engaging with you.

Thankyou, it is reassuring to see that progress is very slowly being made here.

You cannot change sex, though. This is a fact. The only thing you can change is your attitude towards your sex.

What is it you are seeking then, if not some 'divine' state of femaleness - however you perceive it? A male can never be female - because male and female are sex based. What you are seeking unity with is ephemeral; a mirage.

There was nothing new in my statement, there is no 'progress' being made in my statement despite you seeming to desperately claim it. As can be evidenced by my post on page 6 of this thread.

Perhaps the continuing issue is your own interpretation of the posts that people post in reply to yours. You do seem to have a habit of taking a statement such as this post was and turning it into an absolutist statement.

So if you feel you are making 'progress', perhaps the progress is in your own capacity to accurately interpret people's posts.

Ironically this is the first time you have described something you experience that may actually resonate with female people 😂

We also live lives that are very different to the cultural assumptions made about us and many of us spend years (sadly often fruitlessly) shouting "Stop seeing what you expect to see and see ME!". I mean, once you have demolished explicit legal and practical barriers to women's empowerment, that is basically what Feminism is - the desire of women to be seen as complete people not constrained by what society expects of our sex.

Hence the reason we find genderist ideology so utterly insulting, offensive and frankly infuriating - because claiming it's the cultural constructs that make a person a woman rather than a female body is the ultimate act of negation of women as indivduals in favour of the cultural constructs laid upon us.

R U OK HUN?

Anyone that’s ever signed up to 23andme or had genetic screening for breast cancer gene mutations or had a baby can see their chromosomes (written on the resultant report/their medical record). If our babies need genetic screening we can see their chromosomes too (again, on the paperwork).

So weird that transfolk think chromosomes are something mysterious, rather than something police labs can discern from the residue on a discarded cigarette butt.

Still, It’ll be fun to witness the conniptions when all medical care goes DNA based.

I think it's quite a bit more complex than a simple binary state - a person can be perceived as male or female without necessarily being perceived as trans, and can likewise be perceived as gender non-conforming without necessarily being perceived as trans. Plenty of trans people can communicate a binary gender identity while still being perceived as 'a person who has transitioned'.

I am specifically referring to the phenomenon whereby a person is perceived as being in line with their gender identity without being perceived as having transitioned to it. I.e. not-trans.

You mean like back in the old days, when people were just men and women?

‘Perceived as female’ 🙃

Whereas those of us who are actually female are far more concerned with the material reality of living in a female body than with how that body is perceived by others.

It's nice to have a stable foundation from which to then work to improve society for all victims of patriarchical oppression, isn't it?

Imagine how frustrating it would be to have a chorus of people saying your experiences of embodied existence aren't real whenever you try and engage with them.

I don't believe that is materially true in the same way that I don't believe that neurodiversity, malnutrition or DNA only started existing when people invented terms for them.

Imagine how frustrating it would be to have a chorus of people saying your experiences of embodied existence aren't real whenever you try and engage with them.

We don't have to imagine that. We live that. A chorus of TRAs constantly denying our "experiences of embodied existence" as the female sex class.
How arrogant.

For the lurkers, some examples of trans activists shouting abuse at women's events (just off the top of my head) -

At the FILIA conference (largest annual feminist conference in Europe) last year in Glasgow, the odious 'Cabaret of Hate' shouted abuse through a PA system at attendees for the conference.

There have been so many A Women's Place meetings disrupted (including venues being surrounded and essentially besieged) that there's a whole page about it - https://womansplaceuk.org/2021/10/27/record-womans-place-uk-meetings/

No less than 3 attempts were made to show a feminist film at the University of Edinburgh and the delightful tactics employed by TRA's included spitting at attendees, threats upon the venue and blockading exits and entrances.

Women have been punched in the face at Speakers Corner events.

A Lib Dem staffer literally shouted 'fascist' in a baby's face at a women's rally.

That's not starting on the various events where masked TRA's have turned out to women's rallies to kettle and intimidate.

I'm guessing Butters has a similar list?(I'm being facetious, of course, it doesn't exist).

I feel certain that no such evidence will be forthcoming.

If ever there were a way to tell whether a woman really thought the person she was dealing with were actually a male claiming to be a woman, the hyperbolic fawning would be a surefire giveaway.

When you're young and riding a wave of liberty and autonomy, gender fluidity sounds fantastic. But the fallout is the uncertainty when certainty is very important. Recent events show that women have to be on their guard more than ever, being bamboozled by so called gender IDs is adding to the mounting distress. We never asked for tall or butch women with short hair to be scrutinised; it is the result of the gender mythology madness.

"Biology is an active, dynamic set of interlinked, mutable systems which can be adjusted"

Yes, to some degree. But so far not to the point it becomes possible to turn a man into a woman, not even close. Some limited visual approximations of certain aspects of external female physiology is the best that can be done, hence TWAW and the legal fiction of the GRC.

If it were actually possible to medically turn a man into a woman the whole TWAW thing would be unncessary because there would be no question arising in the first place.

Re fawning - the compliments dished out to transwomen from women are so OTT it's actually quite insulting.

Here's Kay Burley speaking to Ellie Gomersall - fast forward to 4:50 for the ne plus ultra example of this.

'can I just say you're looking fabulous' - a propos nothing the fuck at all.

https://www.tiktok.com/@elliebgomersall/video/7286368345971019041

If ever there were a way to tell whether a woman really thought the person she was dealing with were actually a male claiming to be a woman, the hyperbolic fawning would be a surefire giveaway.

🎯

If you can believe in those things as materal facts that had impacts that preexist naming and are independent of their name, why is it so hard for you to believe physical sex as a material fact that exists and has consequences regardless of whether we are allowed to call ourselves exclusively Women or not?

Do you believe that naming those things made it easier to understand and reason about them? Do you think it would be possible to understand and support the neurodiverse, for example, if we did not have a name for them and a recognition that, while different individuals, they nevertheless have common qualities that are significant? Or to analyse the impact of malnutrition on children if we had no langauge to separate malnutrition from "feeling a bit peckish"? Do you not think the same applies to the female bodied, who previously had a name until it was stolen from us to label a feeling in the mind of men?

All those women, chancing their arm that they'll see a trans person so they can yell at them. And next to train stations, no less! 😂

We obviously go to entirely different demos, Eresh. I suspect the demos butters attends go to a different school.

I'm 100% on board with working with all victims of patriarchical oppression to improve society. And I absolutely include gender non-confirming people in this, including men who reject traditional patriachical ideas of manhood.

We should be allies.

But trans ideology, the belief that not being Patriachy's image of a man (or woman) makes you not a man (or a woman), the belief that feeling you align more with the social constructions imposed on people of the opposite sex makes you actually of the opposite sex and interchangeable with the opposite sex, is not standing against Patriarchy, trans ideology IS Patriarchy. It is AGREEING that the sexist steroetypes of Patriarchy are real things, that a man who is girly is not a man, that a woman who is butch is not a woman.

I am ahghast you cannot see this.