Page 23 | Is it too early for a post mortem?

Appalonia · 2024-11-15T17:22:08+00:00

So, now that America has categorically rejected transgender ideology, which I do think will affect the rest of the world, is now the time to ascertain HOW did so many institutions, including the Democratic and Labour Parties get so completely bamboozled by this ideology? Which is crazy, not based in material reality, disadvantages half of the population, has physically damaged thousands of young people, and that they didn't think that people would see through it? I know a lot of people dislike Matt Walsh, but his documentary, What is a Woman, was jaw dropping! We must NEVER let this dangerous idiocy happen again ( and yes I know it's not over...)

DodoPatrol · 03/12/2024 16:15

And I'll respect that to the same extent I respect other people's wide range of religious beliefs -- but I don't share them and will not be forced to say that I do.

JazzyJelly · 03/12/2024 16:18

I'm still waiting to hear which legal protections men who claim to be women are losing.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/12/2024 16:22

FlirtsWithRhinos · 03/12/2024 14:13

@ButterflyHatched

Every time you misgender trans women, call us predators, abusers, invaders, men or male, that's what it feels like. And you just do it constantly, page after page, thread after thread every day.

I do not think you understand the impact your words on women.

Every day, we go out into a world of men who talk over us, who demand our attention regardless of what we may want to be doing with our time, who assume we have less ability than a man, who interpret anything we say in a way that fits their bias, who assume childcare and housework just happens without impacting women's ability to make their own destiny, who interpret our experiences back to us to tell us how our understanding of our own lives is wrong who see our bodies as fun toys to consume in porn or sex work, who assume they are entitled to our physical attractiveness and emotional labour to complete their sense of self and react with anger or disgust when we do not meet their expectations, who feel entitled to punish us with violence and sexual assaults. And if we don't complain we must be ok with it, and if we do complain we are emotional, or irrational, or bitter, or jealous, and every time we try to explain it is countered with an alternative explanation where the man acted rationally and reasonably.

In short, every day we fight to exist as complete humans in a world that takes away our power, our right to tell our own stories.

The casual daily disempowerment of being a women hurts so much most of the time many of us can't even face it. We ignore it and trundle along our gender-tramelled path and only shout about the big things, the stuff that is too big to ignore or has hit us at a point that it becomes a last straw.

It is an almost physical sense of disempowerment.

This is the context you are coming into when you tell us that actually our bodies don't matter. Actually womanhood is a mental state, simply the absence of being traditionally male. Actually we should accept you as a woman because we don't understand what a woman is and you do. Actually we don't need female any spaces, or female only rights, or even female only language.

I get it. I really do. Not being female, but feeling like you are still a woman, you naturally dismiss its significance within ou lives. But you really are wrong here, and when you insist your version of our reality overrides ours, we feel it as just one more man telling women what our place is.

👏

FlirtsWithRhinos · 03/12/2024 16:29

@ButterflyHatched

We're losing. We're about to lose it all. The building is burning down around us and you're still arguing about who is actually on fire and whether their screams of pain are authentic enough as if it makes one fucking iota of difference to the flames.

Literally all you need to do to regain these women as your allies is allow for the existence of single sex language, spaces and rights AS WELL AS whatever you need to support your gender.

You can still be 100% you. And given that you do not believe sex is relevant to who you are, how can recognising sex possibly take anything from you?

You are literally just being asked to recognise a physical quality, which everyone acknowledges exists, which clearly has in the past and in many ways still does have consequences for those who have it, and which you do not even have is physically and socially significant to those who do have it, and that these people are also morally entitled to support that suits their needs.

And yet, you won't. You feel powerless, you scream with pain in fear of the fire yet you won't do a significant thing that is within your power to regain allies.

Clearly despite this rhetoric you don't want allies in this fight. You want submission.

Perhaps this is not something you are ready to consciously accept about yourself, but please reflect on it. You feel alone and abandoned but the truth is you are pushing your natural allies away.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 03/12/2024 16:33

ButterflyHatched · 03/12/2024 16:06

This isn't even an argument. There is no actual point being made here. It's playground level crowing to the converted. You're doing the equivalent of misogynistic techbros saying 'the state of you. This is why feminism was a mistake' style guff on twatter as if it is supposed to mean something other than dismissive ingroup signalling.

You're spinning 'look at this trans woman desperately trying to get through to the movement that is steadily demolishing her legal protections, sacrificing a generation of trans kids and doing the far right's legwork for them' as if it is somehow evidence of the supposed failure of gender affirming care.

When I warn, I get dismissal and gaslighting.
When I ask, I get abuse and sneering.
When I ask louder, I get abuse. Louder.
When I bite back by reversing the same language used against me constantly, I get DARVO'd and monstered.
Can you not see the hypocrisy of carrying on the long and proud tradition of punching down at other marginalised people?

Jesus fucking christ. I've lived under the shadow of this spiteful, exclusionary bullshit all my life since way back when it was the painful face of what passed for mainstream feminism.

You have any idea what it's like to come of age in an environment that dismisses everything you say as activist whining or special pleading? Of course you fucking do.

You grew up under this toxic shit as well. It haunted your childhood and you've spent your life fighting against it. Now you're just passing it on.

We're losing. We're about to lose it all. The building is burning down around us and you're still arguing about who is actually on fire and whether their screams of pain are authentic enough as if it makes one fucking iota of difference to the flames.

Show quote history

If by "we're losing" and "we're about to lose it all", you mean, "people are starting to say out loud that the emperor is stark bollock naked (with particular emphasis on the bollocks part)" and "we're losing our ability to force society at large to accept our world view by simply mentioning the word "transphobia" then yes, you're losing, you're about to lose it all.

And thank goodness for that. About bloody time.

Ingenieur · 03/12/2024 16:51

To be fair, I'd probably feel angry and want to lash out if I discovered I'd devoted my life, destroyed my body, alienated those around me and convinced children to do the same, based on some old guff I read on the internet when I was a teenager based entirely on linguistic trickery.

DodoPatrol · 03/12/2024 16:58

I think Butterfly is a bit too old to have picked it up off the internet. Gender dysphoria did exist, if rarely, before the current inflation.

Helleofabore · 03/12/2024 17:03

ButterflyHatched · 03/12/2024 16:06

This isn't even an argument. There is no actual point being made here. It's playground level crowing to the converted. You're doing the equivalent of misogynistic techbros saying 'the state of you. This is why feminism was a mistake' style guff on twatter as if it is supposed to mean something other than dismissive ingroup signalling.

You're spinning 'look at this trans woman desperately trying to get through to the movement that is steadily demolishing her legal protections, sacrificing a generation of trans kids and doing the far right's legwork for them' as if it is somehow evidence of the supposed failure of gender affirming care.

When I warn, I get dismissal and gaslighting.
When I ask, I get abuse and sneering.
When I ask louder, I get abuse. Louder.
When I bite back by reversing the same language used against me constantly, I get DARVO'd and monstered.
Can you not see the hypocrisy of carrying on the long and proud tradition of punching down at other marginalised people?

Jesus fucking christ. I've lived under the shadow of this spiteful, exclusionary bullshit all my life since way back when it was the painful face of what passed for mainstream feminism.

You have any idea what it's like to come of age in an environment that dismisses everything you say as activist whining or special pleading? Of course you fucking do.

You grew up under this toxic shit as well. It haunted your childhood and you've spent your life fighting against it. Now you're just passing it on.

We're losing. We're about to lose it all. The building is burning down around us and you're still arguing about who is actually on fire and whether their screams of pain are authentic enough as if it makes one fucking iota of difference to the flames.

Show quote history

Blimey. Do I have to perform to a certain level of posting standard to suit you? I believe that over the years I have probably made the point that you are expecting me to make.

But you say my post lacked a point? Here it is again.

"If a person is unable to deal with the factual reality that they are a particular sex, and they have been through 'decades and decades' of medical treatment that they have stated they have and that they are campaigning to have available to children, then I think that any one reading these posts will have to be seeing what the medical experts have been raising the alarms about. As has been said on this thread already, if this is the outcome of that treatment protocol, there is a significant problem with that treatment protocol."

If you would like me to clarify this, please ask. I will happy do so. You know that I will.

"You're spinning 'look at this trans woman desperately trying to get through to the movement that is steadily demolishing her legal protections, sacrificing a generation of trans kids and doing the far right's legwork for them' as if it is somehow evidence of the supposed failure of gender affirming care."

Mate, your hyperbole is really outstanding. Are you now saying that my post had a point??? The one you say I didn't have....

If male people with gender identities who have received the medical treatment that you are advocating for cannot hear the word male in relation to their lived reality without catastrophising about this and calling it abuse, do you believe that the treatment has helped that person with their mental health?

And seriously, this below really is more of that hyperbole and emotional manipulation that you keep denying is coming through in your posts. You clearly are not taking anything on board that posters are saying at all.

When I warn, I get dismissal and gaslighting.
When I ask, I get abuse and sneering.
When I ask louder, I get abuse. Louder.
When I bite back by reversing the same language used against me constantly, I get DARVO'd and monstered.
Can you not see the hypocrisy of carrying on the long and proud tradition of punching down at other marginalised people?
Jesus fucking christ. I've lived under the shadow of this spiteful, exclusionary bullshit all my life since way back when it was the painful face of what passed for mainstream feminism.
You have any idea what it's like to come of age in an environment that dismisses everything you say as activist whining or special pleading? Of course you fucking do.
You grew up under this toxic shit as well. It haunted your childhood and you've spent your life fighting against it. Now you're just passing it on.
We're losing. We're about to lose it all. The building is burning down around us and you're still arguing about who is actually on fire and whether their screams of pain are authentic enough as if it makes one fucking iota of difference to the flames.

What I see in your posts, I have been pretty clear about. I consider much of what you have just posted to be projection, hypocrisy, now forced teaming and it is all just more hyped up emotional manipulation to try to convince me, as a female person, saying that you should respect the needs of female people and stay out of female single sex provisions.

You said yourself that you used a male toilet once and from your own post it is apparent that you decided that those male people's discomfort was of higher priority to you than all the female people who are telling you that you need to stop using female single sex spaces.

What rights are you losing exactly? It has been asked numerous times on this thread. You have not really been specific. So, please, take the time to tell us without the melodramatic flourishes and accusations. Let's have a discussion about it.

Or, you can continue as you are. It is your choice.

Helleofabore · 03/12/2024 17:06

FlirtsWithRhinos · 03/12/2024 16:29

@ButterflyHatched

We're losing. We're about to lose it all. The building is burning down around us and you're still arguing about who is actually on fire and whether their screams of pain are authentic enough as if it makes one fucking iota of difference to the flames.

Literally all you need to do to regain these women as your allies is allow for the existence of single sex language, spaces and rights AS WELL AS whatever you need to support your gender.

You can still be 100% you. And given that you do not believe sex is relevant to who you are, how can recognising sex possibly take anything from you?

You are literally just being asked to recognise a physical quality, which everyone acknowledges exists, which clearly has in the past and in many ways still does have consequences for those who have it, and which you do not even have is physically and socially significant to those who do have it, and that these people are also morally entitled to support that suits their needs.

And yet, you won't. You feel powerless, you scream with pain in fear of the fire yet you won't do a significant thing that is within your power to regain allies.

Clearly despite this rhetoric you don't want allies in this fight. You want submission.

Perhaps this is not something you are ready to consciously accept about yourself, but please reflect on it. You feel alone and abandoned but the truth is you are pushing your natural allies away.

It is definitely all about submission Flirts. Most of that post was about getting women to submit and just let a special group of male people into female single sex provisions. Maybe this tactic works elsewhere????

But we have seen this all before.

Ingenieur · 03/12/2024 17:08

DodoPatrol · 03/12/2024 16:58

I think Butterfly is a bit too old to have picked it up off the internet. Gender dysphoria did exist, if rarely, before the current inflation.

Don't be so sure, Butters and I are probably a similar age (early 40s) so the web was established by the time we were in secondary school.

Helleofabore · 03/12/2024 17:09

JazzyJelly · 03/12/2024 16:18

I'm still waiting to hear which legal protections men who claim to be women are losing.

Yes. I think at this point butterfly needs to start being clear about which legal rights are being lost.

And I think that it needs to be rights not demands that are listed so we can have a real discussion.

ButterflyHatched · 03/12/2024 17:16

DodoPatrol · 03/12/2024 16:13

We're really not 'crowing to the converted' There is no converting needed.

We are the opposite sex. It's not complicated. For most purposes that doesn't matter, but where it matters, division by 'gender' instead of sex is often unworkable, because it disregards the differences in bodies and is very poorly defined.

I don't know why that riles you quite so much.

I do not disagree with this principle at all. It's sensible and smart and I wholly support it when implemented compassionately and carefully on a respectful, case by case basis that takes into account the practical realities of all those involved within each particular context.

This should not be difficult or contentious, but in practice getting it right is really fucking hard when you have people quite rightly desperately afraid of letting Karen Whites across the line on one side, and people who have been waiting the best part of a decade to start treatment that they're still going to be monstered for pursuing on the other.

There is no easy solution to this problem. There are many easy not-solutions.

The path of least resistance, after decades of earnest, iterative, painstakingly compiled and argued attempts to improve things while retaining the value of existing safety measures, is currently reverting to saying 'fuck it, let's just not bother'.

'Fuck it, let's just not bother' does not help, whichever direction it comes down on. It doesn't solve the problem. It turns it into a different problem that is still shit.

I do not want to lose my protections against abusers like Karen White and creepy toilet masturbating edgelords any more than anyone else here does. This issue, regardless of the number of times you say it does not, affects many different types of people who are subject to misogyny in society.

This is not a 'trans women versus non-trans women' issue. It is not a winner-takes-all competition to see who gets first place. It is not a stick to beat trans women with. I can't quite believe I'm still having to say this.

Treating it like it is being treated; using it as a microphone with which to shout 'man' at trans women - is incredibly self-defeating.

Continuing to weaponise it as an authenticity contest is only serving to ensure that 'fuck it, let's just not bother' is the only likely outcome. Whichever way that eventually lands, it is a gift for the far right.

If that isn't an issue for you then crack on I suppose.

ArabellaScott · 03/12/2024 17:19

Did you actually just call us 'non-transwomen'.

FML.

ArabellaScott · 03/12/2024 17:21

And the solution is very simple - in fact it is easy. Males in males services and spaces. Women in women's spaces and services. That's it. That's all.

AlisonDonut · 03/12/2024 17:21

'Authenticity contest'

It's got it all this thread!

ButterflyHatched · 03/12/2024 17:24

ArabellaScott · 03/12/2024 17:19

Did you actually just call us 'non-transwomen'.

FML.

Would you prefer for me to use the latin prefix that means 'same side as' instead? It's quite a bit less awkward to write and a lot easier to read.

lechiffre55 · 03/12/2024 17:25

Helleofabore · 03/12/2024 17:09

Yes. I think at this point butterfly needs to start being clear about which legal rights are being lost.

And I think that it needs to be rights not demands that are listed so we can have a real discussion.

Show quote history

I don't think it's right that are being lost, it's control of the public narrative that's being lost. Average people are rejecting TRA ideology the more they come into contact with it. That's probably fanning the flames of fear among a community whose relationship with cold hard reality is distant and strained at best. It must be terrifying. When identity politics is losing support it's a bad time to be addicted to it.

ArabellaScott · 03/12/2024 17:27

Women, butterfly. We're just women. You don't need any other term. That's all the word means and has ever meant.

ArabellaScott · 03/12/2024 17:28

I wholly support it when implemented compassionately and carefully on a respectful, case by case basis

It doesn't matter whether you support it or not.

Women are going to defend their rights.

lechiffre55 · 03/12/2024 17:29

Women. Female. Those words have enough meaning for your needs.

Helleofabore · 03/12/2024 17:30

"I wholly support it when implemented compassionately and carefully on a respectful, case by case basis that takes into account the practical realities of all those involved within each particular context."

And there it is.

This is a common cycle. We have seen it before. I remember a few poster, and not butterfly, who taught us this very cycle on FWR. Where they would post on a thread and it would end up that they were ALL for some male people being excluded from female single sex spaces, but not them. Never them.

They always came back to that. A 'case by case' scenario that benefitted them.

The blatant hypocrisy was stark to the female posters. And it is part of the wheeling and dealing, wheedling and bargaining that we have recognised. Some from this very thread. Particularly the bargaining.

The 'If I gave up the word, would you allow me access' bargaining.

AlisonDonut · 03/12/2024 17:33

Will call Karen White 'she'...but calls the women on FWR 'non-trans women'.

Delightful.

UtopiaPlanitia · 03/12/2024 17:33

ArabellaScott · 03/12/2024 17:19

Did you actually just call us 'non-transwomen'.

FML.

That poster is never going to accept women’s point of view because the poster doesn’t want to. Women’s non-compliance is viewed an obstacle to be overcome and not recognised as the fact that women have had enough. I feel sorry for the OP because her discussion has been appropriated by a poster who, to misquote Dylan Thomas, rages against the dawning of the light.

Helleofabore · 03/12/2024 17:35

"The path of least resistance, after decades of earnest, iterative, painstakingly compiled and argued attempts to improve things while retaining the value of existing safety measures, is currently reverting to saying 'fuck it, let's just not bother'."

Umm.... retaining the value of existing safety measures means 'no males above the age of 8 years old' to be in female single sex spaces and no male people to be accessing any female single sex provision - including sport.

To describe your arguments as painstakingly compiled is one thing, but despite that painstaking effort, your arguments lack accuracy and supporting evidence from what we have seen over the past years. Have you been keeping your best evidence and arguments for other people?

IdylicDay · 03/12/2024 17:38

ButterflyHatched · 03/12/2024 10:02

I do. Regularly. You just ignore them as you skim through looking for hooks to hang personal insults on.

Show quote history

Not once have you addressed me directly regarding my suffering and pain. Not....once. You have not even replied to me about what happened to me. Not....one....word. All of your posts are still on this thread. None deleted. You have never ever ever addressed the suffering that women go through, let alone replied to me directly. Not once. Your posts are all on this thread still. Not.....ONCE have you so much as slinged one word of empathy or compassion our way. NOT.....ONCE. Don't lie. All your posts on this thread are here. Your male icy coldness is obvious even in this post.