Is it too early for a post mortem?

[Appalonia]

So, now that America has categorically rejected transgender ideology, which I do think will affect the rest of the world, is now the time to ascertain HOW did so many institutions, including the Democratic and Labour Parties get so completely bamboozled by this ideology? Which is crazy, not based in material reality, disadvantages half of the population, has physically damaged thousands of young people, and that they didn't think that people would see through it?

I know a lot of people dislike Matt Walsh, but his documentary, What is a Woman, was jaw dropping! We must NEVER let this dangerous idiocy happen again ( and yes I know it's not over...)

No I'm saying that robust online discourse is fucking harrowing and I recommend healthy and responsible self-care measures.

One could say that in doing so, it become abusive. Just like the post to Mrs O.

You're right, I'm not callous. I'm a fair and thoughtful person. I care about women and women's rights, my daughter's rights, and those of all the women and girls here. You don't have the first fucking clue.

Meanwhile, you're on here engaging in psychodrama. For what reason, I don't know and I don't really care.

I recognise it a mile off and refuse to be part of the game.

What can we say?

I do have some sympathy. But it is nobody's fault that you cannot accept your sex. If being male feels cruel to you, that's unfortunate. It doesn't mean everyone else should be compelled to pretend.

Because, Butterfly, you are NOT female. We are saying it "page after page" because you literally are not, which is the entire entire point. And I think it's instructive for other women to see this in action, how little you care about women, and how much this is about your desire for validation.

You are telling us that it is worse for women to upset you by not validating your identity than it is to put our own material and physical needs, safety and hard fought for legal rights aside. So you don't have to feel upset about us telling the truth.

You are saying that your feelings, the feelings of males who identify as female, are WAY MORE important than the material and legal rights and safety of women and girls everywhere.

This is what misogyny looks like. It's the entire fucking point. And why the trans movement is, in its very essence, profoundly anti woman and busy dismantling our rights. I'm sorry you are upset about not being female, and I'm sorry the male world is so alienating to you. But it is not my job as a woman, not any of our jobs, to put all OUR hard fought for rights and physical needs and safety aside to prioritise your feelings and pretend that you are the same as us.

If someone finds it hard to hear women repeatedly, page after page, asserting that sex is biological reality, maybe worth considering whether a site called 'Mumsnet' is likely to be full of women who are unclear on who bears the reproductive burden and all that that entails.

going to engage (against my better judgement) with this one because it's fascinating.

Why should we worry about the impact of our words on you? What would be the reasoning? please explain your thinking.

Because you don't give a flying fuck about the effect you and all your other TRA mates have on women. You are even claiming Karen White as trans, with all that entails, knowing what Karen White has done to women.

It surely can't be you saying #BeKind? Really? Or "turn the other cheek"?

And there we have yet another silencing tactic. The old 'you posted that I am male' tactic.

Thereby removing the ability to rationally discuss the issues at hand.

I cannot believe that there has been a recommendation about mental health support because frankly, it isn't working if a male person cannot read and interact with the fact that they are male when discussing the specific needs of female people.

But of course, it is a silencing tactic to prevent the discussions from being had. Just as 'bad people use your words so you should STFU' is a silencing tactic.

I'd quite like to survive the next decade. I'd quite like some other trans people to do so to as well. I'm trying to be realistic here and manage my expectations.

That's it. That's why I'm here. I joined this forum to provide a direct personal first-hand perspective on gender affirming care in childhood to dispel the outright lies that were being perpetuated here, back when it first came under attack.

That's still my goal; to present my personal truth about something that I have had no choice but to become intimately familiar with since childhood; to dispel misinformation and challenge prejudice, and try and save some lives in the process.

I would like to see a world where children don't have to become self-taught experts in adult healthcare and/or DIY in order to gain access to the treatment I did if they need it.

I would like to never have to give a damn about any of this ever again. But I can't, because I'm an ambassador by default, I cannot stand idly by and watch a generation of people like me be thrown under the bus for votes, and I'm bloody minded enough to keep trying to help.

"It surely can't be you saying #BeKind? Really? Or "turn the other cheek"?"

It is an extension of what has already been said on the thread.

It is right there in the talk about 'compassion' (the special compassion that only goes towards male people with gender identities) and 'sacrifice' that feminists should be making.

"I don't try and claim Scarlett Jenkinson isn't a girl because she murdered Brianna Ghey."

Have I missed something here?

Is Scarlett Jenkinson not a female adolescent? A materially provable fact. Proven by robust physical testing against a well-established criteria to determine a sex category.

Whereas there is no such physical test available to categorise someone as having a gender identity.

Again, this comparator simply fails.

If refusing to make the hard fought for legal rights of women and girls, which are based on our material needs and subjugation through history and around the world, of the half of the human race born with female bodies, secondary to the upset feelings of males who do not wish to be seen as male, makes me a "bigot" to some small-minded patriarchal people who believe that women's natural role in life is to serve others, then frankly, so be it.

I'm proud to put women's material needs and safety ahead of male wishes. That's what anti-patriarchy feminism is.

I'd quite like to survive the next decade. I'd quite like some other trans people to do so to as well. I'm trying to be realistic here and manage my expectations.

I'm trying to parse this. Is there some assumption that the posters here on FWR are pitchfork wielding mobs who are literally killing trans people? or that we have some kind of power over legislators who can, with a stroke of a legislative pen, wipe trans people from the planet somehow? (repealing things like the GRA will not make trans people disappear, they have always been around - even pre GRA - and therefore we must assume they would still be there post-GRA)

Or is it something worse and you are worried that you might take things into your own hands? in which case i would suggest urgent contact with mental health services for your own good.

If you are bloody minded then you'll have no problem understanding the women here are also bloody minded about something important to them, biological sex.

You talk about misinformation, but you have to understand that people other than you have opposite views to you and they hold them equally strongly.

Just as a single example your dismissal of The Cass Report, a medical review that took 4 years to make by an incredibly respected clinician in the field, sounds very misinformation.
If that was a review about why people should take vaccines with the same medical weight behind it, and right wingers were calling it fake science, you'd be dismissing what the right wingers said as misinformation.
The difference is you have a stake in the Cass review because it is about the trans phenomenon, and you disagree with the conclusions. If you agreed with the conclusions you'd be here holding it up to support your views.
For many people "misinformation" is purely if they agree with the information or not.
I think proper long term evidence based medical science on the issue is urgently needed. Studies that actually track the outcomes over the entire remaining life of the patients. Not based on belief but observation. Many gender critical people are incredibly suspicious why the Tavistock didn't do this. They pushed the kids through there like a conveyor belt and didn't keep track of the results for the patients. I strongly believe they deliberatly did this because deep inside they knew they didn't want to be confronted by the long term results of their actions.

You can post here for as long as you like as long as you obey the MN rules just like we have to. You have no more and no less posting rights than anyone else here. But I'd like you to think about one thing, those Trans places you hang out where they say bad things about us. Anyone, including you, posting anything in those places that does not toe the party line gets banned instantly. And yet here you are in the belly of the beast arguing up and down and you can speak freely without getting banned. You have more freedom of expression here among the gender critical than you have in you own space. Why do you think that is?

All I see in this post just how dishonest the statement 'I literally flipped a single word' is.

And this is also dishonest: "If you're spluttering over my usage of the exact same language as you."

No. You didn't use the same language. You didn't just flip a single word. It is right there in the post for all to see.

How many posts on this thread alone have othered me by calling me male? I find it absolutely excruciating every time you do it. I find referring to people as 'males' and 'females' dehumanising and vile.

Male and female are not dehumanising terms they are factual. What are dehumanising terms are those that trans people are attempting to enforce on women - cervix havers, menstruators, birthing bodies, bleeders, to name but a few. They are truly dehumanising and othering terms.

Then there is the infamous 'cis' prefix. No, women do not need a prefix attached to them, the word women is ours, it describes us. Attempts are made to enforce this unnecessary term on us - the answer to that is NO.

You actually don't understand the impact of your words on trans people, do you? It just doesn't ever occur to you, does it?

Do you understand the impact of your words on women and girls? Does it occur to you? Or do you absolutely understand it and just dismiss it out of hand?

I refuse to believe you are so callous as to endlessly say this shit while knowing how it affects us. I don't think you're that cruel.

I do believe the proponents of GI are callous and cruel they know exactly the impact of their words and actions on women and girls and they don't care.

So, for avoidance of doubt and to reinstate a measure of perspective:
Every time you misgender trans women, call us predators, abusers, invaders, men or male, that's what it feels like. And you just do it constantly, page after page, thread after thread every day.

I don't believe in gender and I don't believe there is such a thing as misgendering indeed the Law of the land doesn't either as it is not an offence. I will be polite, civil and reasonable to anyone.

I will continue to call anyone who is a predator, abuser, men or male exactly that.

@ButterflyHatched

Every time you misgender trans women, call us predators, abusers, invaders, men or male, that's what it feels like. And you just do it constantly, page after page, thread after thread every day.

I do not think you understand the impact your words on women.

Every day, we go out into a world of men who talk over us, who demand our attention regardless of what we may want to be doing with our time, who assume we have less ability than a man, who interpret anything we say in a way that fits their bias, who assume childcare and housework just happens without impacting women's ability to make their own destiny, who interpret our experiences back to us to tell us how our understanding of our own lives is wrong who see our bodies as fun toys to consume in porn or sex work, who assume they are entitled to our physical attractiveness and emotional labour to complete their sense of self and react with anger or disgust when we do not meet their expectations, who feel entitled to punish us with violence and sexual assaults. And if we don't complain we must be ok with it, and if we do complain we are emotional, or irrational, or bitter, or jealous, and every time we try to explain it is countered with an alternative explanation where the man acted rationally and reasonably.

In short, every day we fight to exist as complete humans in a world that takes away our power, our right to tell our own stories.

The casual daily disempowerment of being a women hurts so much most of the time many of us can't even face it. We ignore it and trundle along our gender-tramelled path and only shout about the big things, the stuff that is too big to ignore or has hit us at a point that it becomes a last straw.

It is an almost physical sense of disempowerment.

This is the context you are coming into when you tell us that actually our bodies don't matter. Actually womanhood is a mental state, simply the absence of being traditionally male. Actually we should accept you as a woman because we don't understand what a woman is and you do. Actually we don't need female any spaces, or female only rights, or even female only language.

I get it. I really do. Not being female, but feeling like you are still a woman, you naturally dismiss its significance within ou lives. But you really are wrong here, and when you insist your version of our reality overrides ours, we feel it as just one more man telling women what our place is.

"Male and female are not dehumanising terms they are factual. What are dehumanising terms are those that trans people are attempting to enforce on women - cervix havers, menstruators, birthing bodies, bleeders, to name but a few. They are truly dehumanising and othering terms."

"Then there is the infamous 'cis' prefix. No, women do not need a prefix attached to them, the word women is ours, it describes us."

Needs to be repeated over and over.

If a person is unable to deal with the factual reality that they are a particular sex, and they have been through 'decades and decades' of medical treatment that they have stated they have and that they are campaigning to have available to children, then I think that any one reading these posts will have to be seeing what the medical experts have been raising the alarms about. As has been said on this thread already, if this is the outcome of that treatment protocol, there is a significant problem with that treatment protocol.

OPERATION: Let them speak.

Thank you.

Thank you @FlirtsWithRhinos well said 👏

Excellent.

However, we have been there and done that. I am sure you Flirts have been there and said that all before to this particular poster. It does not matter at all what we say or how gently we say it though. The message is blocked simply because it doesn't fit what is wanted to be heard.

In saying that, we heard it!!

'The casual daily disempowerment of being a women hurts so much most of the time many of us can't even face it. We ignore it and trundle along our gender-tramelled path and only shout about the big things, the stuff that is too big to ignore or has hit us at a point that it becomes a last straw.

It is an almost physical sense of disempowerment.

This is the context you are coming into when you tell us that actually our bodies don't matter. Actually womanhood is a mental state, simply the absence of being traditionally male. Actually we should accept you as a woman because we don't understand what a woman is and you do. Actually we don't need female any spaces, or female only rights, or even female only language.'

God, yes.

When some say 'listen' what they really mean is 'shut up'. When they say 'learn' they mean 'do as you're told'.

This isn't even an argument. There is no actual point being made here. It's playground level crowing to the converted. You're doing the equivalent of misogynistic techbros saying 'the state of you. This is why feminism was a mistake' style guff on twatter as if it is supposed to mean something other than dismissive ingroup signalling.

You're spinning 'look at this trans woman desperately trying to get through to the movement that is steadily demolishing her legal protections, sacrificing a generation of trans kids and doing the far right's legwork for them' as if it is somehow evidence of the supposed failure of gender affirming care.

When I warn, I get dismissal and gaslighting.
When I ask, I get abuse and sneering.
When I ask louder, I get abuse. Louder.
When I bite back by reversing the same language used against me constantly, I get DARVO'd and monstered.
Can you not see the hypocrisy of carrying on the long and proud tradition of punching down at other marginalised people?

Jesus fucking christ. I've lived under the shadow of this spiteful, exclusionary bullshit all my life since way back when it was the painful face of what passed for mainstream feminism.

You have any idea what it's like to come of age in an environment that dismisses everything you say as activist whining or special pleading? Of course you fucking do.

You grew up under this toxic shit as well. It haunted your childhood and you've spent your life fighting against it. Now you're just passing it on.

We're losing. We're about to lose it all. The building is burning down around us and you're still arguing about who is actually on fire and whether their screams of pain are authentic enough as if it makes one fucking iota of difference to the flames.

We're really not 'crowing to the converted' There is no converting needed.

We are the opposite sex. It's not complicated. For most purposes that doesn't matter, but where it matters, division by 'gender' instead of sex is often unworkable, because it disregards the differences in bodies and is very poorly defined.

I don't know why that riles you quite so much.

OK, I take that last bit back. Of course it riles and upsets you, because your whole life is based around ignoring sex in favour of gender, and clearly gender matters immensely to you.