Is it too early for a post mortem?

[Appalonia]

So, now that America has categorically rejected transgender ideology, which I do think will affect the rest of the world, is now the time to ascertain HOW did so many institutions, including the Democratic and Labour Parties get so completely bamboozled by this ideology? Which is crazy, not based in material reality, disadvantages half of the population, has physically damaged thousands of young people, and that they didn't think that people would see through it?

I know a lot of people dislike Matt Walsh, but his documentary, What is a Woman, was jaw dropping! We must NEVER let this dangerous idiocy happen again ( and yes I know it's not over...)

"This is one of your less coherent arguments."

I don't consider you a good judge of coherent arguments.

"Treatment can be imperfect but still life saving." Yes. I know.

"As the medical profession worldwide has been regularly finding for the best part of a century, transition is the best treatment we have for gender dysphoria."

And this is where your entire argument comes unstuck. You, personally, need it to be the best treatment. You, personally, are very heavily invested in it being the best treatment.

However, the 'medical profession worldwide' has been also finding that it is NOT the best treatment for gender dysphoria. Plus, you are now ignoring that academics and policy influencers who are transgender themselves have stated that gender dysphoria is not needed to identify as transgender. Yet, you and others are insisting that those with a transgender identity should have access to hormone treatment and surgeries. For what? An identity.

It is imperfect.

It has been shown to not improve mental health and it is proven to make life long medical patients and cause significant health issues.

So are knee replacements.

Knee replacements are for a diagnosed medical condition. Your comparison is completely irrelevant and flawed.

I still don't consider you a good judge of coherency of arguments.

"People can still have a rough ride even on top of imperfect medical technology, because society still has a massive transphobia problem, and it is getting worse.
You are part of the movement actively contributing to that."

I am part of a movement that is focused on prioritising the sex based rights and needs of female people and children. It is a silencing tactic to state that I am actively contribute to transphobia and it has several flaws. All which have previously been discussed directly with you.

"When trans people are abused, their mental health is impacted."
"Transition wouldn't be sunshine and flowers with or without the constant abuse. The abuse just makes it more difficult."

It really depends on who is defining what abuse is. Because as we know, too often it is an abuser who is stating that that disagreement is abuse. When it is not abuse, it is measured disagreement. I would categorise your post to Mrs O as abusive by the way.

"You are saying transition doesn't work, as part of a movement dedicated to making sure it doesn't work."

I am asking for evidence that it is life saving from peer-reviewed studies. I am stating that medical professionals have raised significant and legitimate alarm about medical 'transition'. What part of that statement is false?

"Despite your efforts, it remarkably still works."

Again, please provide the evidence that the hormone and surgical treatments you support generally improve mental health for those who have received it. You can keep repeating that it works, and accusing women on the internet of transphobia and hate all you like. However, just like the reality that people cannot change sex, you cannot change the reality that medical experts are raising the alarm that these treatments are not improving the mental health of the majority of the patients undergoing those treatments.

If you have the evidence, please link it up.

And I still don't consider you a good judge of coherency of arguments.

I'm here precisely because I listen to other women. I'm one of the only people I know with the patience and bloody-mindedness to even bother trying to make a difference.

What you are trying to do is to get women to agree that you should be treated as the female sex.

We're just not going to do that.

It's not the job of women to support your gender identity.

You are so frustrated that we won't agree with you that you have now resorted to name calling.

I'm here precisely because I listen to other women. I'm one of the only people I know with the patience and bloody-mindedness to even bother trying to make a difference.

In what sense? What "difference" do you imagine you can make on this site?

That kind of vile puerile behaviour is disgusting no matter who it is coming from.

Do you have any idea of the kind of abuse trans women receive online every day if we so much as dare to expose an attack surface? I'm sure you don't send any of it personally, yet of the hundreds of thousands of people who spend all day making sock puppet accounts to abuse trans people, most are doing it in your name using your words.

I'm sorry unmoderated social media is shit and the far right has co-opted what started as an anti-establishment left-wing activist movement. I can't fix it for you. I think we'll be more successful if we work together rather than denying there is a problem.

I'm also working on fixing the many issues the trans community has, as are many of my friends and allies.

There are just so many fires to put out right now.

So are knee replacements

Please leave my planned surgery out of it. It has absolutely nothing in common with any gender related surgery, other than being a type of medical procedure.

yet of the hundreds of thousands of people who spend all day making sock puppet accounts to abuse trans people, most are doing it in your name using your words.

Are they now.

Quite.

Previously on essentialist metaphysics 101: one drop of maleness is enough to ensure a whole body is irrevocably infested with sin for life.

Vets do not need to have studied metaphysics to know which type of neutering surgery to perform on a cat. Our ancestors did not know what metaphysics was, but they knew that if they kept a bepenised sheep in an enclosure with another bepenised sheep, there would be no useful baby sheep the next year. This is just reality, and continues with or without humans and our language.

Maleness isn't contained in liquid measures. It is a binary concept. Why do you think connectors in the early days of electronics were named male/female?

Males are not "infested with sin for life". They are just kept apart from females in certain key aspects of life. Anyone who has worked with livestock understands the practicalities of this.

I picked out this particular sentence as it's a succinct demonstration of the scientific illiteracy and melodramatic nonsense that you think is helpful to your cause.

What are those rules of misogyny again?

Women are responsible for the actions of others who turn their words into weapons?

Shut the fuck up wims! People who are not us and who are not motivated by the same things are using our words for other purposes! And it is all our fault. We are responsible and should just SHUT THE FUCK UP!

Oh. I forgot. Or we could pretend to agree with what a group wants when it causes us harm… forgot that option.

I mean, this ludicrous"original sin" metaphor is very useful for the uninitiated to see the kind of wheedling, overwrought hyperbole and magical thinking of the "trans rights" movement.

one drop of maleness is enough to ensure a whole body is irrevocably infested with sin for life.

That's a very weird take.

Why conflate maleness with sin? We are talking about practical, pragmatic facts that are readily backed up with evidence, such as the risks males present to females.

We're not talking about 'sin'. We are just women trying to live our lives, and asserting the rights we have already fought for and won.

Ok now do 'everything you say is irrelevant because Karen White exists' - we haven't heard that for a few pages.

And sex is coded into every single cell of one's body. Determined at conception as either XX or XY, and will never change. It's not an optional extra that's added in at a later date.

Being male or nor female is in any way a 'sin' or morally right or wrong. It's simply an irrevocable material fact.

All Butters does is reinforce how much of a bad idea gender ideology is. If that’s the “difference” that is being aimed for, it seems self-defeating.

All I see is a middle-aged male who has a myriad of health problems from youth medical transition who hasn’t come to terms with the fact that they haven’t changed sex and there are people outside of their bubble who won’t go along with their belief system. I see someone who, instead of coming to terms with biological reality, is demonstrating why blind affirmation leads people down an alley they can’t find their way out of. I see the male entitlement that bubbles out from beneath the surface, revealing itself to be the true intention.

I don’t see someone who is happy and demonstrative of the benefits of transition, trying to convince us of such. I see someone who is seething at the idea that they’ve come across people who don’t just nod and clap at all their metaphysical woes like their pals IRL. In becoming abusive, they demonstrate exactly why women don’t want males in women’s spaces. I see someone who has derailed threads before with the exact same arguments and ended the threads in exactly the same way.

You have nothing, ButterflyHatched. Nothing new, nothing original, nothing you haven’t said before, nothing other TRAs haven’t said before. Your arguments boil down to “I say you should do this, and if you don’t, you’re all meanies.” You act like a child. The only “difference” you’re making, if you want to call it a difference, is reinforcing to me how toxic trans ideology is. We won’t bow to your demands. We will stop children being harmed despite your imploring to allow it to continue. When people ask me why, I’ll get them to read your posts.

Karen White is a male sex offender. The issue is that he is male, not that he is "trans". The issue for women is that he was put in a women's prison.

“one drop of maleness is enough to ensure a whole body is irrevocably infested with sin for life.”

Hyperbole, and this time misandrist as well. Gosh! Posting styles flip from misogynistic to misandrist in one thread. Makes lots of sense though when you consider the background.

”Reality is more complex than this. People are more complex than this. More than one thing can be true.”

This is true for some things but unfortunately not for sex categories in humans.

Sex categories are not more complex than having a body formed around producing large or small gametes. Regardless of whether that gamete has been produced ever or will be produced ever by that body. I doubt this has changed in the entirety of human life.

So no, people’s sex category is not more complex than that. If you have proof otherwise, please link us up with how sex is not as simple as what gamete production function a person’s body has been formed around.

It does show the emotionally manipulative nature of it all.

Yes, and how (and why) the entire ridiculousness takes over literally everything it touches. Hence it turned out to be far more relevant to the US election results than its advocates (and many Democrats) are still able to admit.

Anyone who still thinks it's a "minor issue" or a "culture war invented by the far right" is an absolute fool who hasn't joined the dots yet and lacks historical literacy. The manipulation involved in the entire ideology has been extreme, it's everywhere, including at the heart of governments and legislation, and it has been impacting ALL the legal rights gained by women over history as they have all been entirely based on things that happened to women & girls solely because of our biological sex. It's impacted the right to fairness and equality under the law, and to basic human rights for women such as freedom of belief, association and speech, the right to speak truthfully, and the right to have boundaries away from men when we are vulnerable. In the US, you have women being raped in prisons by convicted male rapists as a result of it ffs, simply because the men's wishes to be identified as female overrides any women's human rights to physical safety and freedom from harm. It is profoundly misogynist and anti human rights.

And that's even before we talk about the irreversible harm that's been done in medicalising any child who doesn't "fit" the old fashioned sex stereotypes for their sex, again, to bolster the wishes of adult males to be identified as female. It's sick.

Karen White is male and categorised himself as female. And raped women.

That you think this is a ‘gotcha’ really confirms exactly what people have pointed out and where you have retaliated with abuse.

And if you thought this was a coherent comparator, you have again failed. This one is as flawed as your ‘born in Dudley’ analogy.

The repetition of ‘sin’, ‘sacrifice’ and ‘compassion’ seems to be trying to push reasonable and legitimate arguments back into the moral judgement box.

It is like someone just read a sermon and is repeating the buzzwords here.

“You cannot reason a person out of a position he did not reason himself into in the first place.” Jonathan Swift

Just out of curiousity is Karen White trans in your opinion?

Can a person say they are trans but not really be trans?

If I say I'm trans, but I also say I'm only saying that to prove a point, am I trans or not?

All NotBadConsidering does is reinforce how much of a bad idea anti-trans ideology is. If that’s the “difference” that is being aimed for, it seems self-defeating.

All I see is a middle-aged female who has a myriad of hangups from a refusal to engage with decades of advancement in feminist thought who hasn’t come to terms with the fact that they haven’t solved sexism by villifying other types of women and there are people outside of their bubble who won’t go along with their belief system.

I see someone who, instead of coming to terms with biological reality, is demonstrating why blind hate leads people down an alley they can’t find their way out of. I see the seething prejudice that bubbles out from beneath the surface, revealing itself to be the true intention.

I don’t see someone who is happy and demonstrative of the benefits of exclusionary essentialism, trying to convince us of such. I see someone who is seething at the idea that they’ve come across people who don’t just nod and clap at all their metaphysical woes like their pals IRL.

In becoming abusive, they demonstrate exactly why women don’t want prejudice in women’s spaces. I see someone who has filled threads before with the exact same arguments and ended the threads in exactly the same way.

You have nothing, @NotBadConsidering. Nothing new, nothing original, nothing you haven’t said before, nothing other GC's haven’t said before. Your arguments boil down to “I say you should do this, and if you don’t, you’re all abusive men.” You act like a child. The only “difference” you’re making, if you want to call it a difference, is reinforcing to me how toxic anti-trans ideology is. We won’t bow to your demands. We will stop children being harmed despite your imploring to allow it to continue. When people ask me why, I’ll get them to read your posts.

"All I see is a middle-aged female"...

Ah, there it is. The Gregg Wallace defence. Just Butters proving how SO very "feminist" and womanly they are. Sure, we're just all bitter, miserable old harridans who know our own history, but Butters doesn't like that.

Hard to hide the blatant and rank old-school male misogyny, but just in case anyone was in any doubt...

Read my link, Butters