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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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47
CassieMaddox · 05/10/2024 13:23

Discussing hypothetical cases is a derail though.

Datun · 05/10/2024 13:33

It's a very odd take to think that women shouldn't sue when someone has either broken the law, or whose motivations are misogynistic, because it will do more for the opponents of those women than it will for anyone else!!

How the hell does that work!

And if I had a penny for every time somebody said I used to be sympathetic to women fighting transactivation, but I'm not now, because of X, Y or Z person, I'd be rich.

Justnot · 05/10/2024 13:36

to summarise (you lovely PPs could do much better I’m sure)

MDs not allowed to go to a women’s rally in case it looks bad
if you say Nazi you are a Nazi
you can’t say paedophile as it’s homophobic
if MD wins it’s bad for political parties (cry me a river) and proves nothing
If MD loses it proves JP et all were in the right even though their performances in court alone have been craven arse covering - wouldn’t trust them as far as I could throw them
oh and the whole world thinks KJK is a nazi or nazi adjacent - and we are deluded on here

i could go on but I can’t keep up with the twisty turny arguments - one minute its an argument next minute it’s a strawman

and the above is what we are expected to get behind or agree with on this board - never gonna happen is it………

there is no equivalence between turning up at a rally and publishing material promoting paedophilia - if you find your self in a position where you are defending that, find a better example ( I haven’t read it all but plausible deniability is not good enough). It was called safe schools so if they didn’t know they should have known.

Helleofabore · 05/10/2024 13:36

lifeturnsonadime · 05/10/2024 11:40

There's no inclination to listen or consider why someone else might form that opinion in good faith.

I listened to that audio, unless you think that by wanting rights for trans people whilst protecting rights for women who need single sex spaces is a transphobic position, I cannot see how you can have a 'good faith' belief that MD is transphobic.

She was persistent in her belief that this is important. I tend to agree with her. Unless a party is prepared to stand up for women, women will lose out to men who identify as trans.

It should not be seen as something that cannot even ben discussed for fear that a political party would be deemed transphobic. The minute it is discussed it is clear it is not transphobia, unless, of course, you think that women wanting spaces for only females IS transphobic.

I also have listened.

What struck me was that this seemed to be a fact finding meeting. What I suspect Moira Deeming thought the meeting after the rally was, when that meeting after the rally was not quite what some seem to say it was while the team seemed to have made up their minds prior to the meeting.

And as a fact finding meeting, Pesutto had no formed solution to recommend. So I am not sure what it is that Moira Deeming is supposed to be rejecting here.

She indicates she will listen to what he suggests, although she rightly also states what she sees as the solution from her point of view.

Unless there was a recording of the later meeting and I missed it?

What is also clear is that Moira Deeming was upfront and asked for advice on how to manage her views on women’s and children’s rights and the impacts of gender identity being prioritised and she received no response.

This is a strong indicator that she was prepared to work with the leadership team before ‘incident 1’ - the maiden speech.

She also seemed to me to be asking for women and children’s rights to be given higher priority by the party. And for women and children to receive clearer support. As well as people who are transgender.

She seems to have wanted the liberal party to say that they would work to ensure all groups had their needs met. And from that recording of that meeting that was dodged.

lifeturnsonadime · 05/10/2024 13:41

Yes Helle, I thought she handled it really well.

The overriding emphasis was that women's rights should be something a mainstream political party is prepared to address and not brush under the carpet for fear of being accused of transphobia.

She's not wrong.

No other solution was given as far as I can tell. Other than she should shut up.

GailBlancheViola · 05/10/2024 13:45

I would have thought that looking at published, freely available papers authored by contributors to the programme would have been the most basic of requirements in assessing their suitability for input into the programme.

Helleofabore · 05/10/2024 13:51

lifeturnsonadime · 05/10/2024 13:41

Yes Helle, I thought she handled it really well.

The overriding emphasis was that women's rights should be something a mainstream political party is prepared to address and not brush under the carpet for fear of being accused of transphobia.

She's not wrong.

No other solution was given as far as I can tell. Other than she should shut up.

There was supposed to be a later meeting, around 3 pm where he would come back with options.

There was no solution proposed on this audio.

Moira Deeming did not ignore Pesutto’s suggestions on this audio. He outlined the issue as he saw it and said there had to be a solution. Didn’t propose one then but said they would discuss it around 3pm later that day.

lifeturnsonadime · 05/10/2024 13:52

Helleofabore · 05/10/2024 13:51

There was supposed to be a later meeting, around 3 pm where he would come back with options.

There was no solution proposed on this audio.

Moira Deeming did not ignore Pesutto’s suggestions on this audio. He outlined the issue as he saw it and said there had to be a solution. Didn’t propose one then but said they would discuss it around 3pm later that day.

Edited

Good point, is there an audio recording of that meeting?

Helleofabore · 05/10/2024 13:55

Justnot · 05/10/2024 13:36

to summarise (you lovely PPs could do much better I’m sure)

MDs not allowed to go to a women’s rally in case it looks bad
if you say Nazi you are a Nazi
you can’t say paedophile as it’s homophobic
if MD wins it’s bad for political parties (cry me a river) and proves nothing
If MD loses it proves JP et all were in the right even though their performances in court alone have been craven arse covering - wouldn’t trust them as far as I could throw them
oh and the whole world thinks KJK is a nazi or nazi adjacent - and we are deluded on here

i could go on but I can’t keep up with the twisty turny arguments - one minute its an argument next minute it’s a strawman

and the above is what we are expected to get behind or agree with on this board - never gonna happen is it………

there is no equivalence between turning up at a rally and publishing material promoting paedophilia - if you find your self in a position where you are defending that, find a better example ( I haven’t read it all but plausible deniability is not good enough). It was called safe schools so if they didn’t know they should have known.

Don’t forget that women’s words have to be finely tuned to the right tone else they will be dismissed and censured, even by feminists.

And that Australian MP’s should uphold the language standards of UK politicians or they are open to censure too.

Helleofabore · 05/10/2024 13:56

lifeturnsonadime · 05/10/2024 13:52

Good point, is there an audio recording of that meeting?

Don’t know. Am doing some work now but will check later.

From recollection, there was one recording mentioned from Moira Deeming and I believe then this was it.

AlisonDonut · 05/10/2024 14:03

So today's take is:
People who worked with paedophiles on a schools programme didn't need to know who they were working with for months or even years because nobody knows everything about their colleagues, but Moira who went to a 90 minute women's rights rally needed to distance herself from it because once upon a time, two bad people set up a live stream at a LWS event. Also someone else did some air quotes and responded to an adult baby fetishist asking why they were not concerned about paedophiles.

And also:
They were concerned about the public's interpretation of her attendance at a woman's rights rally, which was talking about men in women's spaces, because men with bad connections came to a woman's rights rally and the reason that the public know this is because they themselves sent a dossier full of fake 'connections' to the press. And the men were there in the first place because the government gave them a permit to be there. So all totally above board in the first place.

UtopiaPlanitia · 05/10/2024 14:06

Helleofabore · 05/10/2024 08:57

I have seen the Brisi times report on the potential egg attack, has there been much else?

The fact someone intended to attack Moira Deeming in court shows the depths that some people will sink to.

Oh, obviously the press see MD as a bad lady so attempted egg attacks carried out by scarily well-prepared would-be assailants in a supposedly secure public building are not an outrage if they happen to bad ladies. (end sarcasm mode)

Datun · 05/10/2024 14:07

They were concerned about the public's interpretation of her attendance at a woman's rights rally, which was talking about men in women's spaces, because men with bad connections came to a woman's rights rally and the reason that the public know this is because they themselves sent a dossier full of fake 'connections' to the press. And the men were there in the first place because the government gave them a permit to be there. So all totally above board in the first place.

it's absolutely farcical, isn't it.

I'm sure that's the meaning of give a dog a bad name and then hang him.

And for the avoidance of doubt, I'm not calling KJK or Deeming a dog, and neither am misgendering them.

mothra · 05/10/2024 14:18

Dowsett had links to his academic papers - including the paper I have quoted extensively from - on his La Trobe University online bio, quite unashamedly, until the shit hit the fan in 2018, whereupon he removed them.

Why do you presume his colleagues were unaware of his writings?

Why do you keep defending those who worked on the Safe Schools program?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/10/2024 14:22

Pretty much @AlisonDonut

SinnerBoy · 05/10/2024 14:33

CassieMaddox · Today 11:50

Pesutto is trying to raise with her why the general public might have concerns.

I can help him out there, it's really very simple. It's because of Pesutto and other devious shits like him falsely smearing her as such.

Datun · 05/10/2024 14:56

SinnerBoy · 05/10/2024 14:33

CassieMaddox · Today 11:50

Pesutto is trying to raise with her why the general public might have concerns.

I can help him out there, it's really very simple. It's because of Pesutto and other devious shits like him falsely smearing her as such.

Exactly

LongtailedTitmouse · 05/10/2024 15:10

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

CassieMaddox · 05/10/2024 15:44

SinnerBoy · 05/10/2024 14:33

CassieMaddox · Today 11:50

Pesutto is trying to raise with her why the general public might have concerns.

I can help him out there, it's really very simple. It's because of Pesutto and other devious shits like him falsely smearing her as such.

People were questioning her motives before she was even elected. It's not entirely correct to say this started with Pesutto.
E.g.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/australia-news/2022/jul/26/my-number-one-issue-victoria-liberal-candidate-has-history-of-attacking-transgender-rights

When I listen to both audios it sounds to me very much like he's trying to get her to listen to concerns and she is not having it. She's only interested in her own version of events.

‘My number one issue’: Victoria Liberal candidate has history of attacking transgender rights

Videos show Moira Deeming casting doubt on Covid vaccines and claiming schools encourage LGBTQ+ students to be ‘narcissistic’

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/australia-news/2022/jul/26/my-number-one-issue-victoria-liberal-candidate-has-history-of-attacking-transgender-rights

CassieMaddox · 05/10/2024 16:00

mothra · 05/10/2024 14:18

Dowsett had links to his academic papers - including the paper I have quoted extensively from - on his La Trobe University online bio, quite unashamedly, until the shit hit the fan in 2018, whereupon he removed them.

Why do you presume his colleagues were unaware of his writings?

Why do you keep defending those who worked on the Safe Schools program?

Again, I learn a lot being forced to defend ridiculous positioning of my comments. I was trying to find out 1) how many people were involved in the programme and 2) what input Dowsett had.

It appears he wasn't involved in the programme at all. He founded the department that the academic that designed and ran the programme worked in Confused.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2016/mar/16/george-christensen-accuses-safe-schools-advocate-of-promoting-paedophilia

What was that thing about "guilt by association" again? I'm even more of the opinion MD is a pot calling a kettle black now.

George Christensen accuses Safe Schools advocate of promoting paedophilia

Queensland MP levels accusation at university professor Gary Dowsett as Coalition MPs step up attack on anti-bullying initiatives for LGBTI students

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2016/mar/16/george-christensen-accuses-safe-schools-advocate-of-promoting-paedophilia

CassieMaddox · 05/10/2024 16:02

AlisonDonut · 05/10/2024 14:03

So today's take is:
People who worked with paedophiles on a schools programme didn't need to know who they were working with for months or even years because nobody knows everything about their colleagues, but Moira who went to a 90 minute women's rights rally needed to distance herself from it because once upon a time, two bad people set up a live stream at a LWS event. Also someone else did some air quotes and responded to an adult baby fetishist asking why they were not concerned about paedophiles.

And also:
They were concerned about the public's interpretation of her attendance at a woman's rights rally, which was talking about men in women's spaces, because men with bad connections came to a woman's rights rally and the reason that the public know this is because they themselves sent a dossier full of fake 'connections' to the press. And the men were there in the first place because the government gave them a permit to be there. So all totally above board in the first place.

Edited

The nazis weren't given a permit, assuming that's who you mean by your coy reference to "bad men" Confused

SinnerBoy · 05/10/2024 16:04

CassieMaddox · Today 15:44

People were questioning her motives before she was even elected. It's not entirely correct to say this started with Pesutto.

Sorry, could you copy and paste the bit saying that she's Nazi adjacent, please.

CassieMaddox · 05/10/2024 16:05

Helleofabore · 05/10/2024 13:55

Don’t forget that women’s words have to be finely tuned to the right tone else they will be dismissed and censured, even by feminists.

And that Australian MP’s should uphold the language standards of UK politicians or they are open to censure too.

I'm an equal opportunities feminist which means I'll voice my opinions on people's behaviours regardless of whether they are male or female.

CassieMaddox · 05/10/2024 16:08

SinnerBoy · 05/10/2024 16:04

CassieMaddox · Today 15:44

People were questioning her motives before she was even elected. It's not entirely correct to say this started with Pesutto.

Sorry, could you copy and paste the bit saying that she's Nazi adjacent, please.

Sorry, why are you asking me to do that? It's entirely irrelevant to the conversation Confused
Maybe you can find the defamatory statement where he said she was nazi adjacent? Noone else has managed so far Confused

CassieMaddox · 05/10/2024 16:11

CassieMaddox · 05/10/2024 11:50

That isn't what I said.
Pesutto is trying to raise with her why the general public might have concerns. She is not prepared to listen to his suggestions as to how to manage those concerns, instead she's jumping straight to a very hardline response and insisting the only acceptable course is for him to say "Moira isn't transphobic and no-one can find any evidence she is".

That kind of approach inflames tensions rather that dousing them as it encourages people to look for evidence, so I'm not surprised Pesutto wasn't keen. He also wanted to talk about something completely different, and Moira's approach wouldn't have allowed him to do that.

Here's the whole thread you copied from sinner. Nothing at all to do with nazis or nazi adjacent. It was about the earlier audio from before the rally where MD is insistent JP needs to say she's not transphobic and noone has evidence she is.

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