In Australia - Moira Deeming defamation trial now on

[TheSandgroper]

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-09-17/moira-deeming-john-pesutto-defamation-trial-day-two/104360100

This is from our very TRA ABC. Please note the comment from “Mr Southwick, a Jewish MP re Angie Jones’ tweet”. Well, Angie Jones is as Jewish as they come but they don’t say that.

Also, for, those who don’t know, see Angie on m.youtube.com/@TERFTalkDownUnder, though she hasn’t posted for a while. Some really good interviews.

Gender ideology, for one, is very anti Science/flat earth type thinking. It demands obedience with no questions asked and flies in the face of material reality. A lot of the climate change actvistism is aslo very extreme. Operating as a kind of religion.

I'm not arguing with anything you wrote in this post. I'm saying 1) equating the "hard left" to the "far right" is a poor argument because the hard left is much smaller and not in any power; 2) it's circular because one could just as validly make an identical argument that the rise of far right behaviour is what is causing the hard left to exist and 3) its not right to blame the rise of the "far right" on "the left" when "the left" is a far, far bigger sector of society than the "far right".

I'm not sure why anyone would spend their time defending the far right really.

The Left in disavowing religion, has instead created a lot of new religions in the form of rigid ideological fervour.

Georgia Meloni is not far right, She is a fairly mainstream European leader, albeit it of the Right rather than the Left.

Italy has suffererd a lot from uncontrolled migration in the last decade or so, as well as lots of unstable coalitions; plus economic crisis caused in part by belonging to the EU and the single currency. Italians want to re-assert their national identity and their own authority. This is what I was talking about when I said that the right tends to be about boundaries, firm lines and definitions

It is starting to feel like the GC movement is being defined as a right wing movement and women are only welcome if they vocally disavow "the left", whatever that means. Multiple posts equating "the left" with "the far right" are what leads me to think this.

I think the term "purity spiral" would definitely apply if that's the case.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-63351655.amp

https://theconversation.com/eu-elections-how-italys-far-right-leader-giorgia-meloni-framed-her-politics-throughout-the-campaign-231561

https://www.euronews.com/2023/10/22/giorgia-meloni-one-year-at-the-helm-of-italys-most-right-wing-government-since-1946

I'm using the term "far right" in the sense most political commentators would use it. It is not controversial to call Meloni far right. She's an admirer of Mussolini ffs.

If you think her politics are mainstrean and unremarkable you have a skewed perception.

Yet Left wing governments have been implementing some quite extreme policies ( or they intend to) when it comes to things like Gender Self Id; childood transitioning and puberty blockers; defunding the police in some U.S states.There have been some fairly extreme Left/Green coalitions in Germany in recent years. In Spain the Catalan extremists have been gaining influence on the Socialist government.

That women have forced the gender debate in Britain now means that the new Labour government is going to have to be very mindful of the full range of argument - rather than just classifying women who post here, for example as 'hate' mongers.

The liberal media and wider cultural 'soup' is also very left leaning...look at the way that Channel 4 and the BBC ( the virtual state broadcaster) operate here in Britain, for example; and there are continual complaints in the U.S about the media bias there.

Nobody here is " defending the far right". They are providing explanations for the state of affairs.

Hiya, sorry I missed this in the melee! How do you think it went today? The press is pretty silent as are the live tweeters I was following.

I'm going to be very interested in Pesutto tomorrow

Rather you have an unbalanced and skewed perspective...because you consider anything that is not Left as "extreme Right"; which in itself just creates even more polarisation. When people cannot disagree without being called" far right apologists" then we have extremism.

If you are credulous enough to share the irrational beliefs of the small selection of examples below, I hold your views in such high regard, I’m sure, that I would be devastated. I would find it hard to believe there is anything at all genuine about such people.

”But a cervix, is something you can have following various procedures and hormone treatment and all the rest of it” The very rational and scientifically based views of David Lammy.

“Not right to say only women have a cervix” The very rational and scientifically based views of Keir Starmer.

“I believe fundamentally in people’s right to self ID… so I think that crimes that are recorded should be recorded as that person wishes.”
“You asked about whether trans people should be in women’s or men’s prisons. I think trans women are woman and trans men are men. So I think they should be accommodated in the prison of their choosing.”

The very rational and scientifically based views of Lisa Nandy.

I’ve no political allegiance but if someone tries to dictate to me that I have to accept diminished rights because it’s ’being kind’ they can just fuck right/left off!

The rise of gender self ID, puberty blockers, childhood transitioning all happened under the Conservatives in the UK.

I'd argue the Laissez Faire, decentralised, "small government" approach of the right made it easier for bad science and ideologically driven medical practice to get a foothold. A more centralised health service that implemented NICE guidelines and had less tolerance for "off label" treatments would have been less vulnerable to the likes of Helen Webberley.

It is you who does this. Your whole modus operandi seems to be to conflate and distort and to try to frame people as being "far right adjacent". You seem very intolerant of alternative perspective without having to resort to demonisation of what you perceive as your opposition

It is good, though, to get a broader kind of overview of world affairs - rather than being so rigidly tribal. When someone pushes to the extremes they will always encounter resistance.....it is inevitable. People who like debate understand that a good debate involves point and counter-point - and the mark of a good debate is for you to be able to understand the perspective of the 'other' and to be able to argue from that persepctive too.

Yet it was the Conservatives who finally blocked those things in the U.K. Labour is the party that is still committed to it.

Trans ideology has been part of a wider left leaning 'woke' culture in most of the western world - all stemming from the U.S; and all countries have been susceptible to it.

And yes,by saying that the Far Right is a natural consequence of "the left" and that Georgia Meloni is "mainstream right" you are absolutely defending the far right.

I would not be offended by someone observing I'm defending "the left" (despite the fact I'm a barely left of centre person). Because it's true, often I am defending the left.

Another thing I find fascinating is the touchiness of people when their politics is named and questioned. Why not have the courage of your convictions? You like Meloni and agree with her politics, that makes you appear quite far to the right on the political spectrum.

Labour are committed to implementing the recommendations of the Cass review and protecting certain spaces for biological women only 🙄

Anyway this is a derail and completely irrelevant to a thread about a right wing Australian political spat.

😂"rigidly tribal" for answering questions. 👌

I'm happy to debate but not with people who claim I'm bad faith or insult me ("rigidly tribal") so I'm done talking to you now.

It is impossible to have a mature debate with you.

I can see why Meloni is enacting some of her policies, yes. It is good to understand how and why things happen. To understand the patterns and movements and how they arise. That is why it is good to understand history. Patterns repeat, only in slighly different configurations.

Human nature never changes.

i don't subscribe to party politics any longer; though I used to be a Labour party member. Probably when you were still voting Lib Dem.

You forgot about Dawn Butler, who told Richard Madeley on Good Morning Britain in 2020 that "A child is born without sex"

Labour are committed to implementing the recommendations of the Cass review and protecting certain spaces for biological women only 🙄

Very half heartedly and grudgingly and only because they realised they had to. They didn't want to and there is no way they have changed their core belief in self-id or that TW are actually women they've just hidden it.

It is starting to feel like the GC movement is being defined as a right wing movement and women are only welcome if they vocally disavow "the left"

This.

Yet many of the Labour backbenchers are still chafing aginst this; and Starmer is still committed to " modernising" the GRA - to make it far easier for men to have a birth certificate which declares them to be female; and therefore enabling a culture in which children will inevitably continue to be encouraged "to identfy" as the other sex to that which they are.

Great comment. Very insightful.

Thanks 👍