In Australia - Moira Deeming defamation trial now on

[TheSandgroper]

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-09-17/moira-deeming-john-pesutto-defamation-trial-day-two/104360100

This is from our very TRA ABC. Please note the comment from “Mr Southwick, a Jewish MP re Angie Jones’ tweet”. Well, Angie Jones is as Jewish as they come but they don’t say that.

Also, for, those who don’t know, see Angie on m.youtube.com/@TERFTalkDownUnder, though she hasn’t posted for a while. Some really good interviews.

Following. Not sure what my opinion is yet - whole thing looks like a mess. I think the judge will have a hard time, especially as "honest opinion" is a defence to defamation.

Was looking for a thread about this. I see it's being misrepresented elsewhere on FWR.

I imagine it will also be misrepresented by the media.

I remember at the time someone changed Pesutto's Wikipedia entry to show how easy it was. Very funny.

The degree of misinformation that Pesutto’s team collected so called evidence was deplorable. They didn’t even try to ascertain the truth behind what they put into the dossier.

So a white male accused a woman with Jewish and Maori heritage of having Nazi links because she was at a rally supporting women's right to speak? Gosh. Who'd have thought?

Shouldn’t the concerned MPs be asking why the fuck the police allowed the neo-Nazis to gather, parade about, disrupt an event, and give illegal nazi salutes??

Just a thought.

Oh really? Where is that then? I hope you are not referring to my comments, but if you are they are my opinion, rather than a "misrepresentation".

My opinion is reading about Deemings lawyers opening statement, that it is an absolute mess and I think the judge is going to have a hard time picking through it. But let's see what happens.

I think if Pesutto's side have accepted that the Nazis gatecrashed, it will be hard for them to mount a defence, without any additional evidence.
Having "links" to Nazis means more than just being in the same physical space or agreeing on the fact that sex is immutable. Or "other people on SM think you do".

@TheSandgroper
Is there a copy of the legal argument(s) we can look at?

From her opening statement though, it doesn't appear anyone said Deeming had links to Nazis. It appears Pesutto was concerned about a perception from others about links to Nazis, due to some ill advised tweets and Nazis turning up. He was concerned with reputational damage to the party.

Don't know enough about Oz law. But in the UK bringing an employer into disrepute would be reasonable grounds for someone to be disciplined. And obviously the evidence would be discussed. I'm not sure how that's defamation.

Anyway I'll be interested how it turns out.

Angie Jones:

https://x.com/angijones/status/1835943420734640354?s=46&t=SPorwN-mokktL467rcZ57g

Interesting how @ABCaustralia journalist @EliasClure mentions @SouthwickMP as a “Jewish politician” but fails to mention that I too am Jewish, despite this information being on the public record. He also incorrectly describes me as an “anti-trans activist” rather than a feminist who advocates for women’s sex based rights.
These people know this twitter account is the only means I have to defend these inaccuracies. None of them have ever had the courage to interview me themselves.
It’s trial via media again.
#DeemingvPesutto
@ABCmediawatch

I'm sure they'll still try though considering those accusing her of having Nazi links, despite accepting that those men gatecrashed the Let Women Speak rally, think a man being in the same changing room as women means a) the women are happy for him to be there and b) that the man in question is actually a woman as he's getting changed in the women's changing room. So to be fair their understanding of things is rather skewed from the start! They no doubt don't see that it is their thinking that is wrong rather than Moiras so it's going to be interesting to see how this pans out.

CassieMaddox

Makes no difference. If she wasn't responsible for or supportive of the Nazis turning up, she can't be held to have brought the party into disrepute based on the misapprehensions of randoms online.

I don't know the law. But he's being sued for defamation, not employment law.

I'm not going to say more about my opinions until I've heard more about the case, because I don't know enough about the law in Oz.

Do neo-nazis have a right of assembly in Australia in general? Or only when they’re disrupting women’s events?

I’m curious about the rules.

It's a good question @AutumnCrow

E.g.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.abc.net.au/article/104360100

"Now, we've got a problem, a huge problem now because people think, rightly or wrongly, that we walk in lock-step with Nazi protesters and Nazis.
"I'm getting clobbered, not just on social media. I'm getting messages from people now, and that will build, this is not going away this is actually going to, I think, intensify as a story."

^^this is what he says on the recording. To me he's clearly concerned with reputational impact and not calling her a neo Nazi or linked to neo Nazis. But I'm not a judge.

I also find it interesting that KJK and he settled out of court and the nature of both their statements. She doesn't appear to have "won" which makes me wonder if this case is going to be quite difficult for Deeming.

Yeah. I'm aware, thanks.
You brought up bringing an employer into disrepute.

Whatever Pesutto's side argues, it will be tough to make Deeming responsible for the misapprehensions of randoms on social media if they accept that the Nazis gatecrashed the event. The decision in the case might go any which way, be decided on a technicality.

Because I'm wondering what the implications are - like how could employers/an organisation investigate something if they are going to be sued for defamation? That seems like a breach of freedom of speech? But I don't know and also its only day 2 of the case so more might come out.

That's why I'm saying I'm not sure what my opinion is yet.

@Snowypeaks Sorry, I have no idea.

Thanks anyway.

Pesutto's letter which formed part of his settlement with KJK and Angie Jones

"Thursday, 16 May 2024

Kellie-Jay Keen and Angela Jones are passionate women's rights activists with long histories of advocacy in Australia and internationally. I agree with them that genuine community concerns regarding women's safety and access to single-sex spaces, services and sport warrant meaningful public discussion.
I strongly believe in the inherent dignity and worth of all people, as expressed in the Liberal Party's We Believe statement and Platform. A Liberal Party I lead will never tolerate hateful and divisive rhetoric, nor abide by Neo-Nazism, white supremacy or other extremist ideologies.
I also believe that all public figures have a responsibility to denounce such extremism in all its forms. I do not believe that it is appropriate to knowingly associate or share platforms with individuals who hold or express these extremist views. I also believe that there is no room to be blithe or cavalier in the face of Neo-Nazism.
I have never believed or intended to assert that Kellie-Jay Keen and Angela Jones are Neo-Nazis. It is also now clear from public statements made by Ms Keen and Ms Jones that they share my belief that Nazism is odious and contemptible.
People engaged in robust public debate do not always have the ability to express themselves perfectly. This is one reason that we should give those we may disagree with some benefit of the doubt.
I recognise that there have been times when my comments could have more clearly differentiated between the organisers of the 18 March 2023 Let Women Speak Rally and the Neo-Nazis who attended the steps of Parliament House on that day.
It has never been my intention to convey that I believed Ms Keen and Ms Jones to be Neo-Nazis, or that they were members of Neo-Nazi groups. As far as my comments may have been misunderstood as conveying that I believed this to be the case, I apologise for any hurt, distress or harm that has occurred.
I also implore all participants in public debate, including online, to behave with respect and decency towards others. I condemn the use of threats, intimidation and abusive language, particularly misogynistic, vile and explicit language that has no place in our society.
I reiterate my condemnation of the Neo-Nazis who attended the steps of Parliament House on 18 March 2023. There is a place for meaningful and sincere public discussion of women's safety and women's rights, but there is no place for Neo-Nazis in Victoria or the Victorian Liberal Party."

www.johnpesutto.com.au/media-releases/2024-05-17-statement-from-the-leader-of-the-opposition?topic=

Seems like a win to me!