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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

In Australia - Moira Deeming defamation trial now on

1000 replies

TheSandgroper · 17/09/2024 07:29

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-09-17/moira-deeming-john-pesutto-defamation-trial-day-two/104360100

This is from our very TRA ABC. Please note the comment from “Mr Southwick, a Jewish MP re Angie Jones’ tweet”. Well, Angie Jones is as Jewish as they come but they don’t say that.

Also, for, those who don’t know, see Angie on m.youtube.com/@TERFTalkDownUnder, though she hasn’t posted for a while. Some really good interviews.

'Are you accusing me of having Nazi links?': Secret recording played at Victorian Liberals defamation trial

A Victorian court hears a recording of a meeting between then-Liberal MP Moira Deeming and senior party figures, including Opposition Leader John Pesutto.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-09-17/moira-deeming-john-pesutto-defamation-trial-day-two/104360100

OP posts:
Thread gallery
34
CassieMaddox · 21/09/2024 15:17

Helleofabore · 21/09/2024 13:53

And I have not given you a false dichotomy at all.

I asked a couple of questions to clarify your opinions and how your thinking is working on this very point. The point that you, personally, introduced to the thread that was irrelevant to the court case.

If you read two questions that lead into discussion as an enforced dichotomy, then that is good to know for future interaction.

OK.
Do you think that these women are there just to get their messages out about what is happening?

Or do you feel they are now guilty by association of speaking at CPAC Australia?

Neither of those statements reflect my position.

CassieMaddox · 21/09/2024 15:19

goldensyrupe · 21/09/2024 14:14

Absolutely, however much this tiny corner of the internet tries to echo chamber it's way out of it CPAC is known globally as a hard-right organisation/conference.

Yep

CassieMaddox · 21/09/2024 15:22

LongtailedTitmouse · 21/09/2024 14:33

It does rather beg the question then - why are only right wing organisations supporting women’s rights? Why are the left so silent on this?

Don't be ridiculous. There are plenty of left wing women and groups active on this. You just don't like them.

timenowplease · 21/09/2024 15:30

CassieMaddox · 21/09/2024 15:15

I seem to recall saying you should take it up with MNHQ rather than raising on the thread. Guess you got nowhere with that.

I haven't got round to it but as you seem to have moderated your own behaviour maybe I don't have to.

Helleofabore · 21/09/2024 16:08

CassieMaddox · 21/09/2024 15:17

OK.
Do you think that these women are there just to get their messages out about what is happening?

Or do you feel they are now guilty by association of speaking at CPAC Australia?

Neither of those statements reflect my position.

Great.

Does that then mean that in the future you will denigrate or attempt to discredit those women for being on a panel at CPAC?

SinnerBoy · 21/09/2024 16:16

Blimey, 15 pages new - I thought there must have been some interesting developments at the trial, but no, I was sadly disappointed.

CassieMaddox · 21/09/2024 16:26

Don't be silly sinner most people here aren't interested in discussing what's happening in court! Believe me, I've tried.

If you want to though, I'd love to. The witnesses yesterday seem like they were a car crash with arguments about the difference between notes, minutes, drafts etc. And people's very sketchy memories.

Helleofabore · 21/09/2024 16:31

MessinaBloom · 21/09/2024 13:58

@Helleofabore

Sure. There is no official affiliation. However, many of the speakers are current or ex Liberal and National Party politicians. And the chairman is an ex Labour and Liberal politician.

That's because ... they're conservative. On the further end of the scale-conservative. But that isn't what you said in your previous post. You said CPAC was a "conference of the Liberal and National Parties of Australia", which is untrue. It is wholly independent, and somewhat extreme in its views - particularly by Australian standards.

You seem to have a very different understanding of extremism than I do, that is clear. I don’t think CPAC are anything near ‘extreme’. Even by Australian standards. I think there are political groups out there that are extreme. The politicians speaking at CPAC are certainly conservative, but are all the speakers?. But you have also indicated that what I consider rather mainstream conservative beliefs, are extreme.

If some speakers at CPAC are not conservative in belief or politically, can anyone make such absolute generalisations about it ? It would be great to not have to have repetitive threads where Sal Grover and Rachel Wong are not accused of being extremists for appearing at CPAC.

SinnerBoy · 21/09/2024 16:32

CassieMaddox · Today 16:26

Don't be silly sinner most people here aren't interested in discussing what's happening in court! Believe me, I've tried.

Really?

CassieMaddox · 21/09/2024 16:36

KJK is accused of being accused of being extremist because she says extremist things and hangs out with extremists, as shown in the current court case.

I'd fully expect someone with her (non GC) views to be at CPAC. However the previous association was called a lie and a smear. I posted the tweet because 1) it's very clear now saying she's associated with CPAC is the truth, not a lie or a smear. Like the fact she endorses Trump and supports populism and 2) I have no clue at all of the point Angie Jones was trying to make. Liz Truss is a nutcase. I'm not sure who she thought was getting "guilt by association" but I don't think the tweet made KJK look good.

CassieMaddox · 21/09/2024 16:39

SinnerBoy · 21/09/2024 16:32

CassieMaddox · Today 16:26

Don't be silly sinner most people here aren't interested in discussing what's happening in court! Believe me, I've tried.

Really?

Yes really. Go through, see who's posted links to the actual trial and tried to discuss the points.

Other posters seem keener to argue. Meh. They can. I'm still following the trial and hoping against hope people might chat with me about it. Along the way I've learnt a lot more about Moira Deeming than I knew last week, which may be a bit of an own goal by posters claiming she's been misrepresented. A bit of light googling shows that's not really true.

Helleofabore · 21/09/2024 16:40

CassieMaddox · 21/09/2024 16:30

There is nothing new to me in that article.

And even messinabloom acknowledges that political parties have factions that disagree on some issues. And as I pointed out both the Australian Labor Party and the Liberal party have always had politicians who were heavily involved in their churches. This is not new.

CassieMaddox · 21/09/2024 16:42

C&p relevant para:

In court this week, Pesutto’s counsel, Matt Collins, KC, noted that Keen-Minshull had used Nazi symbols in previous social media posts, including one featuring a rainbow-coloured Gestapo logo and the word “Pridestapo”, and another in which she changed her profile picture to one of a Barbie doll wearing a Nazi uniform.

“Now, one can have a civilised debate about whether advocates for trans and gender diverse people’s rights do so in a civilised way, or ought to adopt a different tone, but to equate them with the most murderous regime in the history of the world is odious,” said Collins.

“This is a case about whether Mr Pesutto honestly held the view that a person who associated with someone who would post that kind of content is a fit and proper person to be in the party that he leads.”

Irrespective of whether the court finds Deeming was defamed by Pesutto, the undeniable reality is that she was and is a huge problem for the Liberal Party.

She is not only an anti-trans activist. She is opposed to voluntary euthanasia, is anti-abortion and considers the authors of the Safe Schools policy to be “paedophile enablers”. She is also an anti-vaxxer.

Datun · 21/09/2024 16:51

but I don't think the tweet made KJK look good.

Just a reminder, KJK has said she will speak to the 'devil himself' if it meant being heard.

It's one of the strands of her activism.

LongtailedTitmouse · 21/09/2024 16:55

KJK is accused of being accused of being extremist because she says extremist things and hangs out with extremists, as shown in the current court case.

This is exactly the sort of post that led to her being assaulted again today. Fortunately her assailant was arrested, though not before attacking KJK, but no doubt views like those expressed by Cassie led him to feel justified in his violent actions towards a women who was simply providing a platform to let women speak.

I find it disgusting that posters here are so complicit in the violence faced by women trying to speak about our rights.

CassieMaddox · 21/09/2024 17:18

Datun · 21/09/2024 16:51

but I don't think the tweet made KJK look good.

Just a reminder, KJK has said she will speak to the 'devil himself' if it meant being heard.

It's one of the strands of her activism.

It could be a "strand of her activism". Equally it could be her way of heading off inconvenient questions about her political associations.
I think her Trump tweet suggests the latter to be honest.

JanesLittleGirl · 21/09/2024 17:18

In court this week, Pesutto’s counsel, Matt Collins, KC, noted that Keen-Minshull had used Nazi symbols in previous social media posts, including one featuring a rainbow-coloured Gestapo logo and the word “Pridestapo”, and another in which she changed her profile picture to one of a Barbie doll wearing a Nazi uniform.

Is Matt Collins KC singularly thick or is this the standard of Silks in Australia?

There is no such thing as a Gestapo logo. I'm sure that he meant the swastika but, even so, the reasonable inference is that KJK regards LGBT activists as Nazis rather than that she is a Nazi. The same applies to "Pridestapo". The use of the Nazi Barbie profile picture was, as any ful kno, a sarcastic response to being accused of being a Nazi.

Did he actually say this with a straight face?

CassieMaddox · 21/09/2024 17:19

LongtailedTitmouse · 21/09/2024 16:55

KJK is accused of being accused of being extremist because she says extremist things and hangs out with extremists, as shown in the current court case.

This is exactly the sort of post that led to her being assaulted again today. Fortunately her assailant was arrested, though not before attacking KJK, but no doubt views like those expressed by Cassie led him to feel justified in his violent actions towards a women who was simply providing a platform to let women speak.

I find it disgusting that posters here are so complicit in the violence faced by women trying to speak about our rights.

Blaming women for male violence. Nice.

I really don't think me posting on Mumsnet will have had any impact on that violent man whatsoever.

goldensyrupe · 21/09/2024 17:19

I find it disgusting that posters here are so complicit in the violence faced by women trying to speak about our rights.

Women aren't responsible for the violence committed by men.

CassieMaddox · 21/09/2024 17:21

JanesLittleGirl · 21/09/2024 17:18

In court this week, Pesutto’s counsel, Matt Collins, KC, noted that Keen-Minshull had used Nazi symbols in previous social media posts, including one featuring a rainbow-coloured Gestapo logo and the word “Pridestapo”, and another in which she changed her profile picture to one of a Barbie doll wearing a Nazi uniform.

Is Matt Collins KC singularly thick or is this the standard of Silks in Australia?

There is no such thing as a Gestapo logo. I'm sure that he meant the swastika but, even so, the reasonable inference is that KJK regards LGBT activists as Nazis rather than that she is a Nazi. The same applies to "Pridestapo". The use of the Nazi Barbie profile picture was, as any ful kno, a sarcastic response to being accused of being a Nazi.

Did he actually say this with a straight face?

His next paragraph agrees with you, but makes it clear that implying activists are Nazis is the problem, regardless of the type of activist.

"one can have a civilised debate about whether advocates for trans and gender diverse people’s rights do so in a civilised way, or ought to adopt a different tone, but to equate them with the most murderous regime in the history of the world is odious"

CassieMaddox · 21/09/2024 17:25

And:
“This is a case about whether Mr Pesutto honestly held the view that a person who associated with someone who would post that kind of content is a fit and proper person to be in the party that he leads.”

Yep. That's what I think is at the crux of it and why its interesting. Can he be guilty of defamation for taking a "fit and proper" decision? I think that has all kinds of implications if he loses.

For example, would a man accused of sexual assault at work be able to claim defamation for being sacked, if his employers standard of verification of the claim didn't meet a criminal bar?

Datun · 21/09/2024 17:33

CassieMaddox · 21/09/2024 17:18

It could be a "strand of her activism". Equally it could be her way of heading off inconvenient questions about her political associations.
I think her Trump tweet suggests the latter to be honest.

'Inconvenient questions'??

What, exactly, is more inconvenient than, is that the devil, Posie?

I don't think you're hearing what she's saying.

Imnobody4 · 21/09/2024 17:38

CassieMaddox · 21/09/2024 17:25

And:
“This is a case about whether Mr Pesutto honestly held the view that a person who associated with someone who would post that kind of content is a fit and proper person to be in the party that he leads.”

Yep. That's what I think is at the crux of it and why its interesting. Can he be guilty of defamation for taking a "fit and proper" decision? I think that has all kinds of implications if he loses.

For example, would a man accused of sexual assault at work be able to claim defamation for being sacked, if his employers standard of verification of the claim didn't meet a criminal bar?

I've wasted my time reading that article I should have stopped at the beginning

The exchange took place on March 19 last year, the day after a “Let Women Speak” rally Deeming helped organise. The rally was held on the steps of Victoria’s Parliament House, where the gathered speakers protested against transgender rights.

I prefer my journalism without the heavy dose of bias and distortion.

CassieMaddox · 21/09/2024 17:42

The quote is what Pesutto's defence said in court. It tallies with the audio of the meeting. That isn't "biased", that is factual.

The article discusses more of the political context around the issues Pesutto has and talked about some patterns that have arisen in right wing parties in the UK and US too. I found that interesting.

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