Israel society debates the right to rape

[Rymeswithpunt]

People are accusing Israel of being a right to rape state.

Do people here think this is an issue for feminists?

A bit of context;

www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/8/9/everything-is-legitimate-israeli-leaders-defend-soldiers-accused-of-rape

https://wrap.substack.com/p/israel-debates-the-right-to-rape

@IwantToRetire Israeli authorities initially carried out their own investigation, hence their passing on the names of suspected staff members to UNWRA, which UNWRA then investigated. Portraying the Israeli investigation versus UNWRA's similarly opaque investigative process as "bleating to the media" is also absurd and reductive. When making accusations of sweeping generalisations, maybe start with The fact that UNRWA acted with due dilligence on unsubstantiated allegations shows the UNRWA has more ethics than the Israeli Government.

So not a superior ethical position for UNWRA to fire the staff members because based on initial Israeli intelligence, they uncovered sufficient evidence during their own investigation of staff involvement and wanted to do the right thing, rather they did it to get the Israeli government off their backs? Why wouldn't they have just said there was insufficient evidence for all, rather than it being likely or highly likely the fired staff members were involved in October 7th? Make it make sense.*

*But please don't attempt this because it will no doubt involve more fudging and hedging and I was just answering a PP's question rather than wanting a pointless debate about UNWRA.

ETA forgot to quote, so tagged.

But please don't attempt this because it will no doubt involve more fudging and hedging and I was just answering a PP's question rather than wanting a pointless debate about UNWRA.

The initial question was about what had the Israeli Government done.

The Israeli Government never supplied either to UNWRA or anyone else. But based on publicly stated allegations UNWRA carried out an investigation and published their report.

And the comments about why UNWRA fired staff without being able to provide actual evidence has been or was discussed widely, with the suggestion that it could in other circumstances have led to claims of unfair dismissal.

Because you aren't aware of this or thought this, doesn't mean it isn't possible.

And to entertain the idea of a political sop in the situation between Gaza and Israel, is fairly niave.

What do you think is going on in the ceasefire negotiations now.

But perfectly understand that if you have a rigid perspective on the situation of course anyone saying something different will be hard for you to make sense of.

As I'm aware of and have considered all the aspects, I don't think I'm the one struggling to grasp perspectives or meaning here although I understand the process might be confusing to some, coupled with Haq and Lazzarini's deliberately obtuse statements.

Israeli authorities supplied names and allegations to UNWRA, but not their sources (according to UNWRA, the Israelis neither confirmed nor denied this one way or the other). UNWRA investigated and the UNWRA spokesman himself said they found sufficient information from their own investigation that the staff's involvement in October 7th was likely or highly likely and therefore, acted accordingly. It's not difficult to look any of this up but do stay rigid if that's where you're comfortable.

Don't like about 150,000 Palestinians work for UNWRA; its funded by the UN and is basically what keeps the Gazans alive under the siege conditions they are forced to live under?

It would be like defunding the entire DWP because you found out 7 civil servants had committed serious crimes.

@Rymeswithpunt UNWRA has about 30,000 employees, mostly Palestinian. I'm not disputing the existence of UNWRA and the need for it or suggesting that a small number of staff members participating in the October 7th attack means it should be defunded.

I wanted to edit but I cant for some reason.

I wanted to say 'defunding the DWP and refuse to pay any pensions'

The only news source I have linked is The Times of Israel, and you are calling them a “propaganda channel for Hamas”?!

The thread starter was worded to suggest that Israeli society is having debates as to whether to de-criminalise rape

Certain parts of Israel are debating whether rape is justified as part of torture of detained terrorism suspects. That is what the articles all discuss and what all the MKs justifying it are referring to. What you are calling “blatantly false” is your jumping to an erroneous conclusion that Isrsel is discussing decriminalising rape by reading a title and not the rest of the stories….stories published by Israel’s leading news source btw, the Times of Israel, which are not a Hamas propaganda channel.

It’s not false, you simply are failing to read the full context of the OP and are nitpicking the title. It’s laziness on your part.

What do you mean “needs to be broadened to Oct 7th”- the topic was broadened to include

• Bosnia genocide and rape
• Oct 7th Israeli victims & Israeli hostages
• female Palestinian prisoners
• female IDF prison guards ‘pimped’ to Palestinian prisoners by the own colleagues for rape
• British soldiers raping teen British girls
• USA soldiers rape & abuse of Iraqi prisoners at Abu Grahib
• several comments regarding use and justifucation of rape in all conflicts

And that is just by the end of page 1 of this thread.

This thread has not been one sided from the start.

Yes they have 13,000 full time staff and with volunteers around 30,000 total. So the fact that the independent UN investigation (it wasn’t done by UNWRA on itself) found that maybe for 9 people they have evidence that indicates they may have been involved in Oct 7th is really proof UNWRA has no links to Hamas.

We have much higher % of MPs where evidence suggests they may have links to Putin/Russia and may have been involved in tampering with our elections.

Doesn’t make our Parliament Russian run….or an arm of Putin

It’s too tiny a number.

Too, the may have is tenuous at best, there is a likelihood the workers are innocent.

Anyway,
back on topic. This UN report released in February did not get nearly as much attention as it should have:

”A United Nations human rights panel has called for an independent investigation into reports that Palestinian women and girls have been sexually abused by Israeli soldiers.
In a collective statement on Monday, the seven experts said they were "distressed" by reports that male Israel Defense Forces (IDF) officers had raped, assaulted, and strip-searched female prisoners in Gaza.
They highlighted reports that IDF soldiers had taken photos of prisoners in degrading situations and uploaded them to the internet, as well as claims that an unknown number of Palestinian women and children had gone missing after being detained.

They also expressed "shock" at reports that the IDF had deliberately targeted female civilians even while they were fleeing or seeking shelter from Israeli attacks.”
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/idf-sexual-abuse-palestine-gaza-b2498888.html

I don’t think I need to add the fact that ZERO IDF soldiers have been arrested for raping women/girls during this current conflict. As horrific as the rape of the teen boy was, he’s got more of a chance to get justice as at least there have been arrests.

A spokesperson for the IDF said: “The IDF rejects those baseless accusations. The IDF operates according to international law. Without precise details or proof of individual cases it is not possible for us to examine them in depth.”

In my opinion, the reason it's been treated differently is because there is video evidence of the attack with the soldiers easily identifiable.

However from the UN report, it's very troubling that not only are women being assaulted but they are being attacked whilst fleeing and are disappearing.

There are far-right nut jobs in every country, ours included (if people would care to cast their minds back a few days). Based on way this thread is positioned, you could say that in the UK we're debating killing all the migrants or sending them home - that's not accurate. Mobs of people on the fringes of society are airing views found contemptible by most.

Obviously there are some revolting things going on in the current conflict, but to indicate that Israel as a state and at the government level is endorsing that is not my takeaway from those articles - the soldiers in question were literally arrested by the state. Most people there are not represented by this clearly appallling behaviour.

You lot need to learn to read to the end of the article. 🙄

We understand the article differently. From my understanding, Finance Minister Bazalel Smotrich wanted an investigation solely into whoever leaked the video because of the damage it caused to Israel and National Security Minister Itamar Ben-Gvir, argued that anything, including gang rape was permissable in defence of Israel.

That means to me, that members of the government are either indifferent to the rape or condoning it. They are in the government, so people at government level are endorsing it.

I'm not sure if this is relevant but its a video from a US leftist (who is gender critical!)
Its quite complex but the interviewee seems to have facts to back up her assertions and may answer the question as to why the US and UK cannot condemn Israel?

I wish this investigative journalist would look in the Gender Ideology and the hold it has over our institutions!