Israel society debates the right to rape

[Rymeswithpunt]

People are accusing Israel of being a right to rape state.

Do people here think this is an issue for feminists?

A bit of context;

www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/8/9/everything-is-legitimate-israeli-leaders-defend-soldiers-accused-of-rape

https://wrap.substack.com/p/israel-debates-the-right-to-rape

US soldiers did it in Iraq; British soldiers did it in Kenya, Pakistani soldiers did it in Bangladesh, Japanese soldiers did it in Nanjing, Hamas soldiers did it in Israel, Israeli soldiers did it in Palestine... and so it goes, tragically;
there's a pattern emerging here, isn't there? Rape in war. Always wrong, rarely punished. In how many of the examples above were the perpetrators even accused, let alone convicted, of rape? Most of them marched home heroes, and nothing more was said.

Yes, but this is happening right now, sanctioned by a state we are supporting with weapons and intelligence support that enables it.
And our parliament wont stop it even though most people would be horrified.

You know rape and murder are not inevitable, like earthquakes or the weather.

As has been said up thread rape of both male and female prisoners, not just at times of war and conflict, but in the criminal system has been going on since people started taking prisoners.

These allegations against the IDF have been made for decades and since Oct 7 newpapers and news tv based in countries other than the UK and US have reported on them.

What is different now in Israel, that thanks to those reporters who have continued to raise this abuse the Israel government decided to take action. And even allowing for other extreme actions by the extreme right wing in Israel, nobody expected individuals to turn up and try and stop the arrest of the IDF personnel who had been accused.

This then led to a more public discussion in Israel, but even allowing for strong feelings againt Palestinians, I dont think that this is about the state or the entire population backing this as "legal".

I think why it is making news is I dont think any other country (where no doubt this happens behind closed doors) has ever had members of the Government of a country try and say it should be legitimised.

But at the moment, because Netanyahu is dependent on the right wing to stay in power, they are becoming more bold and blatant in their statements. eg starvation being a legitimate act of war, stopping aid convoys, burning Palestinains homes in the West Bank, illegally seizing their lands and demanding that all Gazans should be forcibily evicted from Gaza.

What is so disturbing is that those justifying rape and other abuse, because of who is being targetted (ie they are perceived to be the enemy), could if accepted, then be used by Hamas to say that it is legitimate for them to treat those they categorise as the enemy in the same way.

But I dont think you can say it is "sanctioned" by the state.

But quite clearly shows that if you put your political survival, as Neanyahu has done, at the whim of extreme right wing Zionists, they know the power they have and are more than prepared to make public displays of this.

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/israeli-journalist-urges-rape-to-become-state-policy-for-palestinian-prisoners/3299001

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/israel-hamas-war-idf-palestinian-prisoner-alleged-rape-sde-teinman-abuse-protest/

It has, however, been a war crime for many years at this point.

I would be surprised if rape in war ever ceases entirely. It's not actually easy to get soldiers to engage with the enemy troops, you have to remove some of their natural inhibitions through training.There are real dangers in that.

But this is why it's important for military organizations to have institutional approaches to controlling the kinds of human impulses that we want to have controlled. One part of that is just making it very clear within the organization that things like rape, or killing civilians, torture, are not ok and there are consequences. Not only imprisonment, but shaming.

Israel seems to have basically done the opposite here.

I don’t know what went on before - I think the rape of women did go on a lot as part of skirmishes - but obviously things have somewhat escalated in terms of conflict, so I’m guessing rape of men and women has ramped up too.. It’s vile. But it’s not surprising.

I don’t think though that it’s being ‘legalised’ as PP said, more a statement that no one gives a shit about it, which is obviously against the Geneva convention.

And all of this under the fasle representation that it is about getting the Israeli hostages released. Most hostage families were dubious that war was the right step to take. Previously (although it took years) an Israeli hostage was released after negotiations, in return to the release of Palestinian prisonsers.

Now few have any hope that Netanyahu will allow a deal to go through, because one the war stops, he will cease to be PM and will be taken to court on an existing criminal charge (let alone any war crimes he may then be charged with.

Families of Israeli hostages demand swap deal this week, threaten escalation
Netanyahu is torpedoing the deal by adding new conditions to Gaza cease-fire talks, families say
https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/families-of-israeli-hostages-demand-swap-deal-this-week-threaten-escalation/3306724

countries who have not signed the declaration recognizing jurisdiction of the ICJ include China, Iraq, Israel, Libya, Qatar and Yemen.
20 Feb 2024
https://betterworldcampaign.org/blog/understanding-international-court-of-justice

There is under reporting of Palestinian women who may have been sexually assaulted or raped whilst is Israeli custody.

There was briefly in the news earlier this year filmed tv interviews with a women who spoke of what had happened to her.

However within a couple of days the story was withdrawn.

Allegedly, because she had come under pressure not to talk about it in public because it would bring shame on her. If this is true it is really depressing that she will not be able to get support, nor apparently has any one prepared to take up her case.

The rights organisation believes that a greater number of female detainees likely experienced similar violations, however, but are uncomfortable disclosing information about the crimes due to social norms, trauma, or safety concerns, including persecution or death at the hands of the Israeli army.
https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/testimonies-euro-med-monitor-women-gaza-report-being-subjected-sexual-violence-torture-israeli-forces-enar

As long as there are men, then it certainly feels inevitable.

As long as there are men, then it certainly feels inevitable.

Exactly - not forgetting that as Golda Mier has been quoted as saying "there should be a curfew for men".

Absolutely.

Actually Al Jazeera is seen to have a very accurate history of reporting.

But because someone had already said silly cliche this I bothered to give links from Israeli papers also reporting this.

So it seems strange to even say it again.

No doubt the Labour Government and other european Government who have made official statements about this did so with fact checking.

But if you dont believe me, why dont you do an internet search of Israeli newspapers.

You need to be far more worried by the political interference in both the US and UK news media re reporting on Israel.

This, exactly.

Disagree. This is about men using sex to cause maximum humiliation. The fact that the targets are almost always women, but in this case are men, is not the point at all.

The point is in the crime of the perpetrator. Not who the target is.

If someone commits arson, it's not suddenly a different crime if they torch a pharmacy instead of a forest.

It's a crime that affects women and women's rights massively. It definitely belongs in a discussion of women's rights. Especially because when the victims are men it presumably really brings out the fact that the point is the torture. Not sex. That's an important point for women to be able to grind into the faces of any trolls who still don't get it.

It's a crime that affects women and women's rights massively

Of all the acts of sexism and / or misogyny it is men's violence that controls, curtails and threatens women having a live where they aren't constantly wondering whether an unknown individual in the street or the man in their home is going to attack them, or coerce them.

Added to which given what seems to be an increasing number of areas in the world where war or conflict is happening, this again has a particular impact on women and children. And whilst women have been active participants in war, they are started by men, male values (or lack of them).

I dont think I have ever been so aware of the threat from any number of countries where men who have these enourmous egos and male posturing are in charge.

Added to which tinder box Trump may become President of the USA again.

You've used Al Jazeera for your source in your OP. Why would you believe Israel's enemies?

You've used Al Jazeera for your source in your OP. Why would you believe Israel's enemies?

This just getting tedious.

Have you read the thread?

If you have you will see that there are similar stories published by Israeli newspapers.

And has also been said, it doesn't matter what country it is, prisoners have and are subjected to sexual violence by their jailers.

Yes, I agree. Women’s suffering doesn’t matter and we are told well that’s just what happens in war when you have female prisoners get over it. Similar reactions to the Hamas rapes of Israeli women and continuing rapes of Israeli female hostages.

Yes, exactly.

What have I just read? I feel sick. It's like Rwanda all over again.

Half of Israeli Jews say Israel should not obey international law in Gaza The poll's findings were released on Sunday by the Institute for National Security Studies
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/half-israeli-jews-say-israel-should-not-obey-international-law-gaza

There are various articles out there. Reuters included.

I don’t think this is a feminist issue No. these are not serious accusations- just more anti Israel and antisemitic hate. There is sadly misogyny and rape in every society but israel is by far the best place for women to live in the Middle East. By a very very large margin.

Al Jazeera is seen as having a “very accurate history of reporting” by whom? No one serious thinks Al Jazeera is anything other than a mouthpiece for Qatar.

There is sadly very biased and dishonest reporting on Israel by the msm including the bbc. The lack of facts, balance and repeating of hamas propaganda without questioning is concerning. It’s not new however.