Israel society debates the right to rape

[Rymeswithpunt]

People are accusing Israel of being a right to rape state.

Do people here think this is an issue for feminists?

A bit of context;

www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/8/9/everything-is-legitimate-israeli-leaders-defend-soldiers-accused-of-rape

https://wrap.substack.com/p/israel-debates-the-right-to-rape

I'm not " hijacking it" - I'm disputing the whole premise of the thread starter - which constitutes blantant and hateful propoganda. When you say " hijacking" is this what you mean....not permitting a blalant distortion to go unquestioned?

Because as I said it has already been dealt with. Many threads are started on FWR where the OP reflects a view point that isn't shared by the majority of the posters who then reply.

Nobody then spends days dotting the thread with the OP is a distortion. Its an outrage.

It has been said. It has been evidenced.

You just look like you are hijacking the thread because that's all you post about.

You aren't recognising what others have posted.

If you read the thread and actually had the good manners to acknowledge what has been posted, every body has already said this.

Why do you keep repeating it.

What are you hoping to achieve by endlessly saying the same thing.

Why not acknowledge those who have already pointed this out.

Unless of course your intention is to bore people so much that they stop posting on the thread.

We Served on Israel's Sde Teiman Base. Here's What We Did to Gazans Detained There

Hands and feet in shackles. Eyes blindfolded. No moving. No talking. And, sometimes, violent beatings. Days upon days, weeks upon weeks pass like this at the Sde Teiman facility for Hamas terrorists and Palestinian civilians from Gaza. These interviewees know. They served there

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-08-16/ty-article-magazine/.highlight/we-served-on-israels-sde-teiman-base-heres-what-we-did-to-gazans-detainees/00000191-5591-d60d-a59b-ff994cb40000

Can also be read at https://archive.is/2EF3z

Are you under the illusion that any criticism of Israel = support of Hamas? This is tired fallacy which is constantly employed by blind, fanatical supporters of Israel.

I'm sorry. Your think I'm a Hamas operative?

I think ;your crazy. And trying to derail a very serious issue because you think it paints your pet cause in a bad light.

Outrages carried out in conflict are always atrocious; we don't often get the amount of detail provided by the link in the OP, but the horrors described in it are no doubt being perpetrated in the many other armed conflicts going on around the world - I think the official number if 59 current armed conflicts? Sadly we don't hear much about the human suffering in the other 58, although suffering is suffering, whoever is inflicting it, or suffering it.

The opinions that 'our boys would never do such a thing' or 'well the other side deserve all they get' is not specific to Israel - British soldiers who murdered innocent civilians in Northern Ireland got away with it because, as was explained to me once by an otherwise reasonable British colleague: 'Our soldiers never kill innocent people, so anybody they killed in Northern Ireland must have been terrorists'.

@MarieDeGournay I agree that torture and rape probably happen in all wars. What surprises me is public figures and civilian protests condoning it.

The thing is though that this is happening right now, like as we speak. And our government is actively supporting it, in fact our government could probably help stop it, but they choose to support it instead. Despite no one here agreeing with genocide and torture.

Indeed.

I was talking with my 93 yr old father in law about recent riots and looting, he said there was no such thing during ww2. I told him that my own late father (born a few years earlier) helped with the task of guarding the family shop and the rationed goods inside during air raids

There will always be people who do not control their baser instincts. What do these people have in common? Sex? Nationality? Religion? Politics? None of these? Is the brutalisation and desperation of war an excuse?

There are still civilians held in Gaza by people who have already shown us what their moral compass is. Their home movies were as damning as the CCTV here. I doubt that even a complete condemnation from Israel will satisfy those who want to remove it from existence

It's not just surprising, it terrifying.

The UN agency in Gaza has links with Hamas. As for the Hamas health ministry, it cannot be trusted. We do know that Hamas led an attack into Israel on October 7th and that women and children were raped and killed - several pictures, also, of hostages (women) with blood on their trousers, who had clearly been raped, several times from the amount of blood.

More on this.

https://www.channel4.com/news/abuse-allegations-absolutely-unequivocally-inexcusable-says-former-israeli-diplomat

https://www.channel4.com/news/palestinian-detainees-allege-torture-and-sexual-abuse-by-israeli-captors

really? That’s are rather pathetic deflection isn’t it.

Which bit are you saying is a lie?

Has the Israeli government proved the involvement of Unrwa staff in Hamas or Islamic Jihad? I'm aware they've made allegations but wasn't aware it had been proved.

I believe everyone is aware of what happened on 7 October and that Hamas was responsible for the attack.

Are you saying the Hamas are animals for raping Israeli women, but that it also gives permission for the virtuous IDF to rape Palestinians, who had it coming to them?

Sounds like you actually support IDF raping prisoners.

I don't UNrwa's involvement is proved, but it is staffed by Palestinians, for the most part. It took a long time for the horrors of Oct 7th to be accepted - some are still in denial.

No. I am saying that Hamas and co were animals for raping Israeli women, and IDF soldiers are animals to rape Palestinians. I am saying you cannot trust any agency in Gaza to be speaking the truth because to speak out against Hamas is a death sentence.
Suggesting I support the IDF raping male prisoners is an ad hominem attack - you don't know what I think from what I said except that I do not trust Hamas. Apparently, these attacks were video'd, because Israeli sources are complaining about that rather than their soldiers behaving appallingly. That does suggest the report is true.

Please, argue against me re Hamas/IDF, but do not second guess what I think - such has no place in rational debate.

^https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/nine-unrwa-staff-may-have-been-involved-oct-7-attack-israel-says-un-2024-08-05/^

The U.N,'s Haq said the United Nations investigation had made findings in relation to 19 UNRWA staff members. Apart from those who may have been involved in the attack, no evidence was obtained to support allegations of one staff member's involvement, while in the other cases the evidence was insufficient to support their involvement.

"For nine people, the evidence was sufficient to conclude that they may have been involved in the seventh of October attacks," deputy spokesperson Farhan Haq told a U.N. briefing.

Haq said the details of the OIOS investigation were confidential and that since information used by Israeli authority officials to support their allegations have remained in their hands, "OIOS was not able to independently authenticate most of the information provided to it."

However when pressed on why the U.N. was acting against nine, he said: "We have sufficient information in order to take the actions that we're taking, which is to say, the termination of these nine individuals."
Asked if this meant the U.N. considered that the nine were "likely or highly likely" to have been part of the attacks, he replied: "That's a good way of describing it."

Has the Israeli government proved the involvement of Unrwa staff in Hamas or Islamic Jihad? I'm aware they've made allegations but wasn't aware it had been proved

No Israel has no proved anything as it made allegations and then and continues to fail to provide an evidence.

The purpose of the allegations was to try and end funding to UNRWA because it is part of the committment by the UN to continue to support Palestinian who became refugees when their land was taken from them (under western control) to form the state of Israel.

Israel has had a long standing agenda to get UNRWA disbanded as it is a reminder that there are Palestinian refugees.

The fact that UNRWA acted with due dilligence on unsubstantiated allegations shows the UNRWA has more ethics than the Israeli Government.

Given that Hamas in the controlling group in Gaza it is hardly surprising that many who live and work there have connections through this very fact.

So I dont doubt that some UNRWA staff have direct connections to Hamas, but the fact is the unsubstantiated allegations by Israel led to funding cuts by posture politic Governments, in breach of their actual committments to UNRWA. Much the same as if the UK Government told a local authority because of allegations against some of their staff they would stop all further payments to the local authority.

If you read the actual UN report you will see that throughout it only says may in all instances.

“The OIOS investigation’s outcomes are the following:

“In one case, no evidence was obtained by OIOS to support the allegations of the staff member’s involvement. That staff member has rejoined the Agency.

“In nine other cases, the evidence obtained by OIOS was insufficient to support the staff members’ involvement and the OIOS investigation of them is now closed.

“For the remaining nine cases, the evidence – if authenticated and corroborated – could indicate that the UNRWA staff members may have been involved in the attacks of 7 October.

“I have decided that in the case of these remaining nine staff members, they cannot work for UNRWA. All contracts of these staff members will be terminated in the interest of the Agency.
https://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/official-statements/investigation-completed-allegations-unrwa-staff-participation-7-october

If this were say the report of a local authority acting on unsubstantiated accusations made by central government, and nine staff were suspended, there would immediately be an employment tribunal for unfair dismissal.

Its all just a politcal game.

Its just as likely the nine who the report says MAY be guilty were sacked to satisfy the hypocritical Governments who stopped their financial obligations to UNRWA. Then they would have to say we acted in haste. They can smugly say, look we were right.

And just a reminder Israel has never provided any evidence. It was a fishing exercise.

It was purely a political move to try and undermine UNRWA, becaue a long term goal is to disband UNRWA.

The fact that UNRWA acted with due dilligence on unsubstantiated allegations shows the UNRWA has more ethics than the Israeli Government.

I suppose if your default position is that the Israeli government is always lying and UNWRA is always telling the truth (rather than Farhan Haq and Philippe Lazzarini's semantic hedging to cover their arses), then this rather far fetched leap would of course make sense. The UN also chose not to reveal the sufficient information they have about the nine staff members' involvement in October 7th that led to their firing-why is that and how does that make them ethically superior?

Lots of " hijacking" going on, I see...which seems to amount to people pushing back against a totally one sided, blatant act of anti Israel hatred.

This thread has been placed in the FWR section of the forum....yet the victim of the rape was a male detainee. As horrible as that incident was, what has it got to do with this board? If we are going to talk about rape in war - then the topic needs to be broadened out to include the rapes committed against women and children on October 7th and against those being held hostage in Gaza.

Shortshriftandlethal · Today 09:20

Lots of " hijacking" going on, I see...which seems to amount to people pushing back against a totally one sided, blatant act of anti Israel hatred.

Pointing out confirmed cases, with evidence to support them, of Israeli torture, rape and other war crimes - not even denied by the Israeli authorities - is not "a totally one sided, blatant act of anti Israel hatred."

Claiming that is a transparent attempt to use emotional blackmail, to try to hide what they do. We all know that Hamas are vile, it's been done to death on MN, in the aftermath of their attack last year. Israel appear to be just as bad.

The disgusting rape and violence on 7th October have been and are regularly discussed.

This is about the Israeli government's use and support of rape. It does go some way to explain the gang rapes carried out by IDF soldiers when off duty.

The promotion and legitimisation of rape culture is a feminist issue @Shortshriftandlethal.

The rapes of October 7th were widely dismissed and/or denied, and even on this board, shamefully!

Shortshriftandlethal · Today 16:46

The rapes of October 7th were widely dismissed and/or denied, and even on this board, shamefully!

By a minority of irrational oddballs, fortunately.

I really dont understand how posters who reply with these sweeping generalisations dont realise how much they harm the points they were trying to make.

Without repeating my whole reply I said:

Israel has never provided evenidence to UNRWA
UNRWA nevertheless went ahead with an investigation and reported what they had found (quote in my post)

To then leap into a fantasy world where about my supposed position on both UNRWA and the Iraeli government is just absurd.

Ethically superior because UNWRA did carry about an investigation, not just bleat to the media allegations.

The firings were not based on conclusive evidence and would in any normal employment process, have led to claims of unfair dismissal. But were presumably carried out as a political sop to Israel.