Imane Khelif

[LHayday]

Just reading the thread on here for the first time. What I fail to understand is why so many contributors are so desperate for her to be a man. Someone who has lived their entire life as a woman. Beggars belief.

It was Putin who carried out the tests.

Oh yes,true story.

@Caliga

Why are you assuming I'm trying to discredit the results? I'm just wondering where they are. Much seems to weigh on them, wouldn't you agree?

What, exactly, weighs on these results? Nothing. IOC rules require only that competitors be legally female (have a female sex marker on official ID).

Who are you to imply that test results could somehow prove that she's 'not really female'? Pure transphobia. They could show she's a normally developed XY individual, and she'd still be a woman, wouldn't she?

(I might do a separate post about why I think that women who've been through male puberty should be excluded from competition in the female category, but that's a quite different matter, of course.)

WickedSerious · Today 09:47

It was Putin who carried out the tests.

Damn! Did The Jews make him do it?

It was the international far right GC movement, of course.

You joke but yes, I’m afraid to say that this has already been argued in Khelif’s defence https://www.thejc.com/news/world/algerian-olympic-team-blames-zionist-conspiracy-for-trans-boxer-row-oib9f6hn

The IFRGC movement?

They threatened him with the space laser.

AncientAndModern1 · Today 10:07

You joke but yes, I’m afraid to say that this has already been argued in Khelif’s defence

I know, I was trying to pile further mockery on the dopes who are accusing all and sundry of plotting against IK.

Blows my mind that people will force themselves to believe any old shit rather than accept the bleeding obvious which is that both boxers have XY chromosomes

They don't believe it.

It's merely another way of sticking it to women.

In terms of subtlety, they might as well send up a million firework drones carving out the word misogynist against the midnight sky, accompanied by the London philharmonic performing the 1812.

An easily disproval libel such as a billionaire accusing a female athlete of being biologically male would be the dream retirement scenario. Better than a lottery win. And IK has already had tests done at a major Paris hospital that would be acceptable proof in any court. Handy!

I do think this is slightly complicated by it being majorly about national pride rather than money - Algeria got a gold Olympic medal which was the aim. The individual who got them that medal wasn't important and their financial security and emotional wellbeing is certainly not important (GB also haven't covered themselves in glory historically when it comes to athlete wellbeing, nor do most countries).

However, your post still holds - while I don't think Algeria gives a flying fuck about the whole debacle as long as the records still show gold - if the test result could be proven false then that absolutely would have been used politically against those dastardly Moroccans

And there I was thinking wee Vlad was too busy taking over the world to concern himself with fripperies like making sure Algeria doesn't do very well at the Olympics.

@AncientAndModern1 Thank you; I found it meanwhile; someone earlier in the thread also mentioned this after my question.

It all seems a bit cryptic though tbh. The onus is on the people making these claims to back them up with data/sources. Saying 'it's there...somewhere...in those six threads' is a bit shady.

If it's a clear cut intersex/Castor Semenya case then I'd very much agree it's unfair to the other female competitors but nobody has yet been able to provide solid sources. They all turn out to be the IBA accusations redressed as 'a prominent sports author' (who just wrote an article repeating the aforementioned) or a vague suggestion to 'look through these hundreds of pages to find it'.

I mean, there are plenty of 'prominent medical authors' that think men can change sex.

There's nothing remotely "shady" about people (myself included) who put the effort in over the last few pages to discuss and provide the information via links, often on several occasions. Not all of us have the time to waste providing it all yet again for people who can't be bothered to read back a few pages. Demanding the same thing be repeated - yet again - is a pretty shady tactic in itself, quite honestly.

Oh, and Alan Abrahamson, the sports journalist you mentioned (he is legit from all I can find about him, genuine journalist, award winning, not some random "internet guy"), claims in his report to have seen the reports himself. Why would he be lying, can you explain? Is he in the pay of the Russians do you think?

Edit: And he doesn't explain the comments from Khelif's own trainer, which can hardly be said to be "just regurgitating what the IBA said" or whatever other silly claim you've decided to put in here. This is pure timewasting.

It's been stated as well that the results can't be released by just anyone.

And no one is going to provide you with the ‘solid sources’ you are wanting. Please read even this thread as to why. But I will go over why again for you.

The ONLY reason we know about Semenya’s medical condition is because Semenya went to the CAS to over turn the requirement to suppress testosterone. It was released in evidence at that time.

Otherwise, we would not have this ‘solid evidence’. Do you believe Mboma is male or female going by what has been said and released about Mboma? Have you seen any ‘solid evidence’ about Mboma?

What is it about the IBA that you have decided means that you cannot trust the IBA? Why don’t you trust Dr. Ioannis Filippatos who has advised them on this issue? He is an IVF specialist and a surgeon who has also been advising sport organisations for two decades by the way. Not an author, not someone without expertise in reading and understanding chromosomes and their impact on the body.

Why do you think this Dr has put his reputation at risk, considering how easy it would be to have him deregistered for this, if he was lying? For what purpose? He has stated he doesn’t get paid by the IBA in the press conference they had.

Not just him though. The IBA could be easily shown to be fraudulent here. The athletes could have taken them to court. Particularly since they even publicly stated that they were clear that they would even pay the majority of any appeal to the CAS?

The athletes and their teams have also not denied the findings as such. The only thing they keep repeating is that these athletes are ‘women’ and registered as female. Which does not, in any way, challenge the IBA findings because the arguments from the athletes and their team rely on sleight of hand language.

So who is going to provide that solid evidence? The IBA cannot release the details. it is false to expect that the IBA would share the test results outside their affiliates. The IOC has the results (and lied about having those results). The IOC is considered an affiliate in that it would be acceptable for the IBA to share the results with them.

No other group would be in receipt of the results outside of the boxers, their team management, and the IBA and who they notified under their obligation. This is a legal requirement guarding the privacy of the boxers. Who, by the way, confirmed that they would not allow the tests to be publicly released.

Do you honestly think the athletes will released that ‘solid evidence’? They have not yet, why would they now?

Besides, Khelif’s team did get a test done in Paris in 2023 and one of the team made a statement about that. They did this after receiving the IBA decision and I expect it was to support their CAS claim, because they then withdrew their claim. Do you trust that claim made by the coach?

So, no. You are unlikely to get your solid evidence that is going to name the specific medical condition. And you seem to dismiss Dr. Ioannis Filippatos’ opinion. So where does that leave you?

You really think this doctor https://eubcboxing.org/presidents/#:~:text=Ioannis%20Filippatos%20is%20a%20Surgeon,he%20is%20also%20a%20shareholder and this journalist https://www.simonandschuster.co.uk/authors/Alan-Abrahamson/62110726#:~:text=Alan%20Abrahamson%20is%20an%20award,.com%20and%20UniversalSports.com. and IK’s own coach are all lying? All of them willing to risk their professional reputation, their financial security and careers for a lie that could easily be exposed by a simple blood test? Leave them liable in the easiest possible libel case? Khelif has not even denied they have XY chromosomes and male levels of testosterone! It’s mad.

IMO its more telling that those in charge (and the person themselves) are refusing to take a simple test that could put all of this to bed easily.

Yes Fripp this is true enough. However, I also understand these boxers not wanting their medical records released to the public on a privacy note. Which adds another layer of complexity to the issue.

Still, it would all be a non-issue if the IOC prioritised fairness over inclusion, understanding that inclusion should not be only considered for that group of male athletes but also for female athletes. Of course, then we wouldn’t be having these discussions, would we?

Even if you're fully on board with JKR and hate trans woman, it seems like a very bad idea to rely so heavily on chromosome tests to decide someone's gender, as it throws up a whole array of other issues if we have to use test-tubes to decide if someone's a man or a woman. I don't know if such a condition exists, but what happens when an actual man with XX genes decides to compete against women? What basis would anyone have to say he shouldn't?

Plus, how would anyone know their own gender for sure until it was tested?
Even apart from woman's sports, it seems to me that any random woman could have some previously unknown condition that meant she had XY genes, that still wouldn't make her a man.

No woman would consider having XX chromosomes ‘private medical information’ .

It's an excellent test for initial screening, though, because it's non-invasive, only needs doing once, and is straightforward for 99.98% of individuals. The few outliers would need further investigation but the science is well known and uncontroversial.

Edited to address your specific examples. XX men normally have a translocated SRY gene from an ancestral Y and are not women. XY women are normally allowed to compete if they are androgen insensitive.

You could be right on that as well.

gender is personality. You don’t need to test for it. I know my sex. I’ve had periods since I was 12 and have conceived and gestated children. I have normal female hormone levels.