Imane Khelif

[LHayday]

Just reading the thread on here for the first time. What I fail to understand is why so many contributors are so desperate for her to be a man. Someone who has lived their entire life as a woman. Beggars belief.

Surely not even the IBA would come up with such a lame attempt to falsely exclude someone, which could be so quickly and comprehensively demolished?

Given the purported machinery of creating false test results that "no-one sees", creating a failed doping test would be much more straightforward, and not falsifiable. You wouldn't be able to retest to prove that someone didn't have traces of a drug in their system on such-and-such a date.

And it also would presumably have actually been effective at excluding them from the Olympics as well as IBA events as I assume the IOC does care about doping, while not caring about sex.

Although as I write that I now wonder - are there any boxers who were under a disqualification term by the IBA for doping at the time of the Tokyo or Paris games? If so, did the IOC allow them to compete, or are they respecting the IBA's doping exclusions?

Well yes.

Is anyone going to question the outcome of a challenge to allow a 65 year old to compete in the 85 year old and over category?

What about people questioning the IOC for excluding people who are not visually impaired from the categories for those with various visual impairments at the paralympics? Any demands to see the results there? Considering the IOC has a history of corruption going back decades?

It is all just sparple at this point.

No need for a welcome as I've been around for eons. I just change my name frequently. I've also read the threads - thanks. I just wanted to make sure.

@Helleofabore

Khelif’s team did get a test done in Paris in 2023 and one of the team made a statement about that. Did you miss that?
No, I didn't miss it. It didn't confirm anything in particular, though.
*
Asking if anyone else has seen the IBA results would be a weak argument to discredit those results in light of the privacy around medical information, the appeal process available to the boxers, and that the boxers could release the information if they chose to.*
Why are you assuming I'm trying to discredit the results? I'm just wondering where they are. Much seems to weigh on them, wouldn't you agree?

The results are private and can’t be released unless the athletes in question choose to make them public. To date they have chosen not to.

Khelif initially made an appeal to the CAS, but then withdrew it. The appeal would have made the results public (as happened with Semenya).

But you know this, since you have been following this story and have read all the threads.

@Helleofabore

If anything could potentially finish off the IBA it would be them falsely excluding two boxers based on flawed tests. It would be so very easy to prove. And the CAS could be part of that and very easily give a public legal decision.

The argument that the IBA might be falsifying the test outcomes is bizarre in the light of what has and has not been said. It is implausible also because not one of the two boxers or their teams have categorically stated that those boxers have XX chromosomes.

I wouldn't suggest it is bizarre or implausible. I'd say it is possibly understandable if they haven't come across the situation before - the situation being likely DSDs. If that were the case, chromosomes would show a variation.

Which is why it always cycles back to the behaviour of the people who object, one way or another. Identical to trans activist arguments.

We asked the wrong way. Ewww genital checks. We're genital obsessives. Chromosomes are private. We are racist. Etc

The way that this case has been seized by trans activists online and treated in exactly the same way as they treat trans identified males is the factor that removes most of the doubt from my mind.

Much does weigh on those results. But not that that have to be seen by anyone else that is legally not allowed to see them.

You can keep saying ‘has anyone else seen them’ but it doesn’t change their validity.

You now ‘wonder where they are’? FFS. Let’s see. Each boxer has a copy and no doubt their team too. The IOC has a copy. The labs involved have copies. The IBA has a copy. Only the boxers can legally release the results to the public. No other organization can see the results legally without the boxers giving permission.

As mentioned, do you expect any sporting organization to publicly release private medical details of athletes? Why do you expect this to be done for these two athletes?

Why are you stuck on this point? It is irrelevant to the validity of the IBA’s decision and statement. And your ‘just wondering’ is also as irrelevant as it is based on false expectations.

The way that this case has been seized by trans activists online and treated in exactly the same way as they treat trans identified males is the factor that removes most of the doubt from my mind.

Yep

With this post you seem woefully misinformed.

Two statements from the IBA and a press conference statement from Dr. Ioannis Filippatos, plus the statement from one of Khelif’s team have all stated there is just what you have claimed. A variation in chromosomes.

Or do you think Dr. Ioannis Filippatos and the Paris endocrinologists “haven't come across the situation before - the situation being likely DSDs” before or know how to read chromosome test results? Really?

And you say your claims are plausible?

This fairly basic scientific method - you make falsifiable claims, and if no-one manages to falsify them, they stand.

Many people who want Khelif to be fighting in the female divisions would be in a position to falsify the claims - if they were false - but they either choose not to or are unable to.

Doping tests rely on trust about contamination - that's why labs have to be certified.

But sex tests do not. Any sex claim can be falsified at any time.

@Helleofabore

Why are you stuck on this point? It is irrelevant to the validity of the IBA’s decision and statement. And your ‘just wondering’ is also as irrelevant as it is based on false expectations.

Irrelevant 😄 It's extremely relevant to the validity of the IBA and their decision. They are a corrupt organisation. They are no doubt angered by the IOC's decision to dump them. (This doesn't mean the IOC isn't also corrupt.) These boxers have been completely dissected at the IBA's word. Perhaps they cannot release their own results; they might have their hands tied by the IBA there. They could take another test, yes. I wish they would, but that is their business.

@Helleofabore

Or do you think Dr. Ioannis Filippatos and the Paris endocrinologists “haven't come across the situation before - the situation being likely DSDs” before or know how to read chromosome test results? Really?

I was attempting to be non-specific. I was suggesting the IBA - not "Filippatos and Paris endocrinologists" had come across it before, eg. within the context of boxing. Of course the experts would know how to read the reports, but when faced with a boxer with a DSD, it's possible the IBA didn't know the best course.

This is a nicest possible interpretation.

These boxers have been completely dissected at the IBA's word. Perhaps they cannot release their own results

Why didn't they appeal the results then? The appeal would have gone to CAS not the IBA. Their costs for doing so were even covered.

And why on earth wouldn't they be able to release their own results? The IBA released what they were legally able to do so. In fact, rather than show willing to give permission to release results, the Algerian and Taiwanese federation sent legal letters to the IBA warning them not the release more.

Then failing ALL of that, the boxers could have undertaken their own tests and released those. But they didn't do that either.

So they had multiple avenues to clear up any doubt raised by the IBA. Yet they didn't take a single one of them. Funny that.

Why would they have ‘their hands tied by the IBA’? The IBA stated clearly it was the athlete’s decisions not to publicly release the test results. They said this in the press conference.

If Khelif couldn’t release the IBA results, they have the results from the Paris endocrinologist that would be solely at their own discretion to release.

If the IBA had falsified the results, there was a process of appeal in place via the CAS. Lin declined immediately. Khelif had filed an appeal, got their own test done and withdrew their appeal.

The tests are relevant. It is your arguments about releasing the results to the public that are irrelevant.

sporting organisation cannot release the details of tests
unless the athlete has signed away their right to privacy. They release a statement saying that an athlete has failed a test. The public did not know until the CAS trial what DSD Semenya had. I don’t believe anyone knows what DSD Mboma has either which caused them to have to switch events to compete.

Ok.

So we have had:

The IBA is corrupt.
The IBA should ignore their legal obligations of protecting the athlete’s privacy.

Now we have the medical advisors for the IBA don’t know their chromosomes?

“Of course the experts would know how to read the reports, but when faced with a boxer with a DSD, it's possible the IBA didn't know the best course.”

This is now incoherent.

Dr Filippatos is one of the medical advisors for the IBA. He stated he gave the advice in his professional capacity.

Your nicest interpretation is irrelevant and it lacks coherence considering we know that Dr Fillippatos, an IVF specialist, does know how to read a chromosome test result. Your arguments just don’t stand up to basic analysis.

There’s video of IK saying it. Look on Twitter at ICONS account. icons_women

"Just wondering"

I can't tell you how heartening it is to see so many people, everywhere I look, going out of their way to desperately defend women.

What can possibly have happened?

These boxers have been completely dissected at the IBA's word.

And this is more hyperbole.

Those boxers chose to enter the Olympics to fight female boxers knowing that the IBA had publicly released statements in 2023 about their failure to be eligible to compete in IBA competitions. The decision to enter was theirs ultimately. The decision to not appeal the IBA decision was also theirs.

What right do any male boxers with male pubertal advantages entering into the female competition have to be there? To put female boxers at such higher risk of injury, serious injury, and to violate their right to fair competition? All because what, the ‘rules’ allow them to? That is removing those boxers agency to make excuses for their own poor decisions.

Women’s rights groups have every right to publicly discuss the decisions made by those two boxers and their teams and the IOC.

So, no. The IBA’s word had little to do with the discussion in the face of it. They sought to confirm their previous stance and added little extra information.

However, the two boxer’s decisions… those decisions have everything to do with these discussions.

Yes, this.

I've also read the threads - thanks.

Sure you have, that's why you don't have a clue about things which were repeatedly posted on multiple threads.

This report contains some detail:

https://www.3wiresports.com/articles/2024/8/5/fa9lt6ypbwx5su3z20xxnfzgtao0gy

Caliga · Today 04:36

BTW - Filippatos/IBA/WBO are all the same, basically.

The IBA and WBO are the same, just as Manchester United and Manchester City are the same.

The IBA aske for tests, twice. The tests were carried out by independent laboratories, in Turkey and India. Both laboratories are accredited to ISO 9001 and approved by the IOC.

I don't see why you are claiming that the IBA carried out the tests, or that the labs were dodgy. It makes no sense to me.

Blows my mind that people will force themselves to believe any old shit rather than accept the bleeding obvious which is that both boxers have XY chromosomes and IK at least also has internal testes that naturally pump out male levels of testosterone. IK has been tested THREE times. Once in a respected and accredited lab in Turkey, once in a ln accredited and respected lab in India and once - in tests ordered by IK’s own team as a result of seeing the previous results - a large hospital in Paris. The results of the former have been described by the IBA’s own expert doctor, an have been seen and reported on by a respected and established sports journalist. IK’s own coach - who is a biologist - has spoken about the Paris test stating it showed a ‘problem’ with IK’s chromosomes and testosterone levels. He stated that IK was on medication to reduce IK’s testosterone to female levels which means previously they were at male levels. Male levels of testosterone are the result either of doping or the presence of testicles. Perhaps most importantly of all, IK has not denied ANY of this. Not once said ‘actually I have XX chromosomes and natural female levels of testosterone’. If IK was a biological female with normal chromosomes etc a libel suit against Rowling, Musk, the IBA etc would be a wildly lucrative slam dunk. It would be insane not to pursue them. A simple blood test would destroy the reputation & career of the IBA’s doctor in an instant and relieve some very wealthy people of a huge chunk of their money. Yet instead IK takes part in a ludicrous photoshoot and makes a complaint about ‘cyber bullying’ which appears to have no legal force outside France. The reasons for this choice must be obvious to anyone whose brains haven’t fallen out.

Totally agree! Half of the population seem to have blinkers on! Batshit bonkers time we’re living in!