Page 3 | Huge argument with best friend about the boxers. Devestated.

Patty78 · 2024-08-10T11:14:59+00:00

My best friend of 30 years has called me stupid, cruel, a fucking terf, a numpty, and an idealogical bigot. He also said he hopes my 7 year old daughter doesn't end up with XY chromosomes and I have to tell her she wasn't a real woman. Who does that? I'm so so so upset. I went through my points clearly and calmly. I pointed him in the direction of Andrew Gold's interview with a developmental biologist. I said she made all the points much much better than I could. I said I didn't really know what the situation was with this particular boxer because nobody could seem to agree. My only point was that if she is XY and went through male puberty, then some sort of policy should be in place. I also said that it wasn't fair for her to be in the limelight like this and that basically, it needs sorting at an administrative level. The vitriol from him has really shocked me. I'm in tears. He's talking about my cruelty to this boxer (who he says was born and raised a woman and it doesn't matter about the chromosomes and would I also stop basketball players from growing too tall) whilst also being extraordinarily nasty to me. Now I'm wondering if I've got this wrong. The reason I have gender-critical views is because I want to protect my daughter. But I'm pretty isolated, on my own... and now I'm really really sad.

nonmerci99 · 10/08/2024 13:14

Patty78 · 10/08/2024 12:41

I think he's turned extra woke-bro and is just doubling down. I don't know. I've known him for 30 years and he's never been known as a feminist-ally. He said my type of feminism is leaving that boxer behind. That I'm saying that an XY woman isn't a woman and that it's disgusting. He's trying to sound super-feminist. But in the past, he's not treated women with respect. I'm in shock.

My type of feminism also excludes males from women’s sport. 🤔

nonmerci99 · 10/08/2024 13:16

I had a nosey at Khelif’s instagram. It’s fascinating how they go from looking very much like a man in appearance and presentation, including hair and clothing, to looking just a bit softer — like makeup has been applied, brows plucked, hair grown out, and a padded sports bra put on. And it all seems to correspond to the Olympics starting. Imagine that.

biddyboo · 10/08/2024 13:16

MrsWhattery · 10/08/2024 13:08

You're not in the wrong OP. If someone is technically male, even if they think they are a woman (or grew up thinking they were, which can happen with some DSDs) and has the advantage conferred by male puberty, it is simply unfair for them to be in the women's category. That's why we have women's categories - so that women can play sport and get to compete and win.

Same as weight categories and age categories. You don't have boxing that allows anyone of any weight or age to fight anyone else because then only one demographic could ever prevail.

What absolutely bizarre about this crossover from trans "allyship" to trying to defend male boxers in women's categories, is their arguments are contradictory. So someone was thought (incorrectly) to be female at birth, grew up being seen as female (possibly) and has female on their passport. So that makes them a woman? But a person who was thought (correctly) to be male at birth, grew up as a boy including male puberty, and has M on their passport, can be as much a woman as any other, just by saying so? Does what you are "assigned at birth" matter or not?

I really think the thought process in these people's heads is something along the lines of "oh no oh no, women are saying someone claiming to be a woman is really male/a man.... and when women do that it's bigoted and wrong and they must be punished and I have to take the other side to show I'm a good person!!! Quick think of/copy some specious arguments and berate any woman who thinks otherwise!"

In other words this whole movement has successfully convinced a whole ton of ostensibly well-meaning, do-gooder type (often "lefty") people that caring that female people exist and matter as a category is wrong and any woman who thinks that way must be ostracised. And for many men, that unleashes a deep, often repressed feeling of superiority and resentment towards women that they now feel justified in indulging. I think a lot of people don't have a full awareness of those motivations though. They just jostle to be on the "righteous" side and feel good about themselves without thinking it through.

Sorry it's so awful for you and it's damaged a friendship like this. I think that's happened to a lot of people with friends, family members, spouses etc. But understanding the reality of sex is not morally wrong and I am convinced this mad moment in history will pass. It's taking its time but it will. Reality has a way of asserting itself in the end.

Edited

"Allies" are the worst. The irony is that they are often the ones bullying and harassing people. I see it all the time at work.

Original poster

Patty78 · 10/08/2024 13:17

eatfigs · 10/08/2024 13:13

You agree with how her friend spoke to her? Insults, arrogant belittling, bringing her daughter into the argument. You're okay with that?

Show quote history

I know she's not trans. That was... kind of the whole point of the argument. It was about DSDs in sport. There's an overlap, but this isn't a trans issue at all.

OP posts:

Shortshriftandlethal · 10/08/2024 13:18

Patty78 · 10/08/2024 12:22

It feels like splitting up with someone. He's like my brother. He's making out like I'm this awful person. I understand that the right-wingers are all over this. But he knows me! I'm a big lefty. I'm one of those annoying fucking do-gooders. I always speak out for the underdog. I just don't understand it.

Is he gay and sold on gender identity?

MinnieCauldwell · 10/08/2024 13:18

Op is your friend a straight man? If so, I wonder if he would date a women with a Y chromosone?

GrimDamnFanjo · 10/08/2024 13:19

I hear you.
I've had to ignore posts about the boxers being just "strong women" and one who believed they had PCOS ffs.
The whole episode stinks and until there are swab tests it will only get worse.
Those scouts who search out DSD competitors to slot into female sports are disgusting.
It's our generations doping scandal.
Ignore him, and if he brings it up tell him he's a man and can't understand the issues.

Shortshriftandlethal · 10/08/2024 13:21

Patty78 · 10/08/2024 12:41

I think he's turned extra woke-bro and is just doubling down. I don't know. I've known him for 30 years and he's never been known as a feminist-ally. He said my type of feminism is leaving that boxer behind. That I'm saying that an XY woman isn't a woman and that it's disgusting. He's trying to sound super-feminist. But in the past, he's not treated women with respect. I'm in shock.

Is he a 'real' friend, as in a friend in real life, rather than just on-line?

And what has made him your best friend, I wonder?

MrsWhattery · 10/08/2024 13:21

This boxer isn’t trans. She’s never been anything other than a woman.

You say that as if there's some kind of logical sequitur there. This person is biologically male. Being or not being trans is irrelevant, a male with the advantage of male puberty shouldn't be in a woman's category for reasons of fairness for women - it's not anti-trans or anti-DSD, it's just fairness.

You can only be trans if you are one sex and want to be or identify as the other (or, according to some, as neither). That would apply to this boxer, as they are male. If they weren't biologically male, they would happily have done a public test to prove it. So if this person is not trans, are they lying? Or perhaps lied to?

Sex matters, even for determining whether someone is trans.

Original poster

Patty78 · 10/08/2024 13:22

He's straight. He agreed with me about trans women in women's spaces (at one point). But he's flipped about this.

OP posts:

Shortshriftandlethal · 10/08/2024 13:22

Patty78 · 10/08/2024 13:17

I know she's not trans. That was... kind of the whole point of the argument. It was about DSDs in sport. There's an overlap, but this isn't a trans issue at all.

Show quote history

But the obvious connection with males claiming female identities and accessing female spaces and sports is what is driving the rage and doubling down of so many who are sold on 'gender identity'.

hihelenhi · 10/08/2024 13:23

This reply has been deleted

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Shortshriftandlethal · 10/08/2024 13:24

Patty78 · 10/08/2024 13:22

He's straight. He agreed with me about trans women in women's spaces (at one point). But he's flipped about this.

The things he said to you, and the way they were said is bullying and abusive behaviour and not in the least bit respectful of the friendship you feel you've had with him.

nonmerci99 · 10/08/2024 13:25

MrsWhattery · 10/08/2024 13:08

You're not in the wrong OP. If someone is technically male, even if they think they are a woman (or grew up thinking they were, which can happen with some DSDs) and has the advantage conferred by male puberty, it is simply unfair for them to be in the women's category. That's why we have women's categories - so that women can play sport and get to compete and win.

Same as weight categories and age categories. You don't have boxing that allows anyone of any weight or age to fight anyone else because then only one demographic could ever prevail.

What absolutely bizarre about this crossover from trans "allyship" to trying to defend male boxers in women's categories, is their arguments are contradictory. So someone was thought (incorrectly) to be female at birth, grew up being seen as female (possibly) and has female on their passport. So that makes them a woman? But a person who was thought (correctly) to be male at birth, grew up as a boy including male puberty, and has M on their passport, can be as much a woman as any other, just by saying so? Does what you are "assigned at birth" matter or not?

I really think the thought process in these people's heads is something along the lines of "oh no oh no, women are saying someone claiming to be a woman is really male/a man.... and when women do that it's bigoted and wrong and they must be punished and I have to take the other side to show I'm a good person!!! Quick think of/copy some specious arguments and berate any woman who thinks otherwise!"

In other words this whole movement has successfully convinced a whole ton of ostensibly well-meaning, do-gooder type (often "lefty") people that caring that female people exist and matter as a category is wrong and any woman who thinks that way must be ostracised. And for many men, that unleashes a deep, often repressed feeling of superiority and resentment towards women that they now feel justified in indulging. I think a lot of people don't have a full awareness of those motivations though. They just jostle to be on the "righteous" side and feel good about themselves without thinking it through.

Sorry it's so awful for you and it's damaged a friendship like this. I think that's happened to a lot of people with friends, family members, spouses etc. But understanding the reality of sex is not morally wrong and I am convinced this mad moment in history will pass. It's taking its time but it will. Reality has a way of asserting itself in the end.

Edited

Very well said.

johann12 · 10/08/2024 13:26

So the boxer has a woman's body from birth but with XY chromosomes ? Is that right ? I have to admit I don't know what to make of that

SerafinasGoose · 10/08/2024 13:27

Patty78 · 10/08/2024 12:26

He mentioned Michael Phelps and lactic acid. I don't even know anything about it. He's not watched the video. Or the quilette articl which is what I originally posted and why he went on the rant. He's just said me and JK Rowling don't get to decide what a woman is. I never said we did. I'm literally crying and shaking here.

Oh, great. Yet another mansplainer coming along to enunciate what womanhood is - to a bloody woman.

Apologies if the above sounds, blase, OP. You thought this was your friend and you are clearly very upset. For that, I'm sorry. But I, for one, am so beyond sick and tired of this incessant noise, that had he said this to me I'd have been more than happy to let the friendship go straight to the dogs - and good riddance.

As for being a 'feminist': this man is just another common, garden-variety misogynist. I don't count those as my friends. It's okay to grieve the friendship: once that's done, however, I predict you will consider yourself well rid.

Original poster

Patty78 · 10/08/2024 13:27

Shortshriftandlethal · 10/08/2024 13:21

Is he a 'real' friend, as in a friend in real life, rather than just on-line?

And what has made him your best friend, I wonder?

Show quote history

Proper real friend, "soul-mate" kind of friend. In real life. Lived together.
He always said that I was "the one" and he should have been with me. But I was too fat for him. And, ironically, too leftwing and "wayward" for his parents to accept. Oddly, I never asked. He has been someone I've had some of the best times of my life with, but I never wanted to be with him. He's a CF. Always has been. I've seen him as a brother. He was a part of our family.

OP posts:

PeachyKeane · 10/08/2024 13:28

johann12 · 10/08/2024 13:26

So the boxer has a woman's body from birth but with XY chromosomes ? Is that right ? I have to admit I don't know what to make of that

No, he's got the same DSD as Caster Semenya who has finally admitted he's male. Basically their penis doesn't develop properly so they can be wrongly assigned female at birth. When they go through puberty it's a full male puberty and all becomes clear as it were. They can father children, Caster has 2, they just use their sperm via IVF.

PeachyKeane · 10/08/2024 13:29

"While Semenya says she became aware she was “different” aged five, she added that she only found out she had internal testicles and no uterus or fallopian tubes after undergoing a gender test following her dramatic arrival on the athletics scene in 2009."

They are fully male just unfortunate for them really but full male advantage in sports so should not be competing against biological females in women's sports.

Flowers4me · 10/08/2024 13:29

I'm so sorry OP, what a horrible situation. You're perfectly entitled to think what you think; the issue here is your friend who doesn't respect that. Totally agree with @MrsWhattery post above and how some people seek to be on the right side in order to feel good about themselves. It says more about them OP, not you but appreciate that it is a shock to hear an old friend talk to you in this way.

tissueboxandcandles · 10/08/2024 13:30

Patty78 · 10/08/2024 13:27

Proper real friend, "soul-mate" kind of friend. In real life. Lived together.
He always said that I was "the one" and he should have been with me. But I was too fat for him. And, ironically, too leftwing and "wayward" for his parents to accept. Oddly, I never asked. He has been someone I've had some of the best times of my life with, but I never wanted to be with him. He's a CF. Always has been. I've seen him as a brother. He was a part of our family.

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He sounds unkind tbh.

LadyJaneGreyandhercat · 10/08/2024 13:30

Unfortunately I had the same argument with my daughter. It’s very sad. They are just being brainwashed by social media.

SerafinasGoose · 10/08/2024 13:31

He always said that I was "the one" and he should have been with me. But I was too fat for him.

What the fuck? He's a horrible, misogynistic, negging arsehole.

To whose possible benefit could it have been for you to hear this? Your update makes me double down on what I posted above.

This man was never your friend, I'm afraid.

johann12 · 10/08/2024 13:31

PeachyKeane · 10/08/2024 13:28

No, he's got the same DSD as Caster Semenya who has finally admitted he's male. Basically their penis doesn't develop properly so they can be wrongly assigned female at birth. When they go through puberty it's a full male puberty and all becomes clear as it were. They can father children, Caster has 2, they just use their sperm via IVF.

Show quote history

Ah I see

AnnaMagnani · 10/08/2024 13:31

What kind of a friend is he if he makes out you were his soulmate but he couldn't be your partner because you are too fat? But he might possibly consider it if you could tone down your personality so his parents approve?

This should have been your massive red flag that he is a weapons grade misogynistic shit.