Can someone explain the Khelif controversy?

[whatsinanameisthis]

I’ll start by saying I’ve read all the major news outlets coverage of the Khelif controversy and am still somewhat baffled. So wondering if anyone who has done more research than I can enlighten me.

From what I’ve read in the papers, Khelif was born a girl, is female, has lived her whole life as a woman. She is not trans, or a man. However she maybe has a condition which leads to elevated testosterone?

I’m trying to understand what the accusation is…

Do we think she’s really a trans man who is lying about having been born female?

Or are we saying that if she is a woman but with a condition, that people with that condition should be screened and excluded from the event? I understand that would seem if the condition isn’t her fault but of course differently abled people are all excluded from the mainstream olympics and instead compete in the paralympics. Or if this condition is real (I simply don’t know enough to understand), could the IOC mandate it’s treated before competitors participate?

Or is this even a question of doping? Is there a suggestion she has been taking testosterone to improve her performance?

I would suggest that "be kind" might be usefully combined with reading the latest research and guidance on female concussion injury and recovery protocols.

Women who haven't had the advantage of testicles to flood their bodies with testosterone at puberty have thinner bones, are more prone to injury and need longer recovery time after concussion.

These non-testes women also have a disadvantage when it comes to building muscle and developing punch strength.

They're also likely, based on weight class, to have a shorter reach so are easier to punch - hard - by women with a testicle and testosterone rich puberty.

So be kind and inclusive to women with DSDs of all types until it comes to sport at which point maybe we can have some fucking common sense.

why weren't they disqualified from previous competitions?

Because the chromosome test was only done in 2023?

Look, it's all here: www.3wiresports.com/articles/2024/8/3/0d4ucn50bmvbndhhqjohaneccoqueq

You're just making up what you think people here have been saying.

Tinkliness of laugh? Flickability of hair?

Spinniest skirt tournament.

That seems like a lot of assumptions about Khelif's development in adolescence - is there factual evidence of this?

I had a massive row with DH the other day because I suggested that to qualify as a woman, athletes should have gone through female puberty, ie have had periods.

He ranted on with whataboutery of women born without ovaries etc etc. But the line has to be drawn somewhere. As a woman I don't qualify because I am dyspraxic and stumpy. So that genetic unfairness rules me out. Being born without ovaries might rule out another woman. Not everyone gets to compete, even incredible elite athletes. But at least if every woman competing had gone through female puberty, we'd have some biological baseline from which to work.

There's a lot if people defending the rights of mediocre male athletes to participate in female elite sports. It's interesting that none of these scorning be-kinders think about the women who have dedicated their lives to their sport only to be forced to compete against men if they want a career. These same posters never seems to say "yes those poor men but also what about those poor women who have lost out on getting placed in the Olympics because men with DSDs have taken them?":

No shock or disgust at the unethical sports coaches exploiting males with DSDs. Nope just "aren't you awful witches for pointing out the corruption.".

And always the pretence of being the better person. They never see the empathic posts acknowledging the challenges these males must've faced early on whilst pointing out the issues of males in women's sports - because said posters cannot engage honestly with what is being said here or the very real issue the likes of Semenya and these two boxers present.

And to those who think there should be a separate category for athletes with DSDs - why? You're either a talented sportsperson in your sex category or you are not. Most people don't get to go to the Olympics. Most people aren't elite athletes. And some people need to accept they are not good enough.

Not at all, I fully believe in separating sport based on sex, and yes by weight class in boxing to make it as fair as possible. The point I'm making is we do not know if the fight wasn't unfair, because we simply don't know the results of these tests or even what tests were carried out. Posters can be snarky and say what else can it be but until there is that confirmation people are being outraged over something which we don't know if it's true or not yet. This athlete was able to mass numbers sex based testing before the one that disqualified them - so what changed? Did the testing change? Was it a mistake? We don't know. Imagine this was a mistake, this is a female, always been a female, XX chromosomes. Will people not feel bad for going after them with all these assumptions the way that you have if that's the case?

The female fighters have agreed to the risk of boxing other female fighters. They didn't agree to fight someone with male puberty driven advantage.

It's called a boxing match for a reason - the participants are supposed to be a match for each other.

This "boxing is inherently dangerous so suck it up" argument sounds very much like the "you should stay at home at night if you don't want to get raped" argument that misogynists use. We have safeguards for boxing: weight and sex categories. Both are equally important in avoiding injury. Carini signed up to compete in the female category. Why should be expected to fight a male?

So is Khalif a hermaphrodite with a vagina, uterus, womb plus a penis?

Right. So if they're not going to prove. anything to the contrary, we take the test results as asserted. XY. Men.

Job done.

Yes, weirdly the female lightweight boxers aren't allowed to fight the female heavyweight boxers.

Almost like fairness and safety based on physical characteristics usually matters in boxing.

This is a bizarre argument. There is no need to scan competitors to look at their ovaries, a simple cheek swab would suffice.

That seems like a lot of assumptions about Khelif's development in adolescence - is there factual evidence of this?

It's considered probable (by experts in the field) that Khelif has 5-ARD like Caster Semenya, so that's what this is based on.

It's been confirmed that this is about XY DSD but whether you choose to consider the source reliable is up to you. As you can see on this thread, many don't. However it is backed up by both the World Boxing Organization and a Freudian slip by the IOC themselves yesterday.

Prove that the person they had to fight is male

Yes @Bahsukdndhe that's why people want to prove it. However you think they should shut up and not question.

No.

Well if Khelif really is female he won't mind taking another test, just a simple cheek swab could make all this go away, he won't though and we all know the reason why.

No. That's now how DSDs work.

The article about Erik/a Schinegger might help. Not to say that this is precisely Khalif's situation, but there are similarities.

www.skimag.com/uncategorized/womens-champ-was-a-man/?scope=anon

I've not said shut up and not question it, I've said we shouldn't be harassing this person.

if they are male then absolutely they shouldn't be fighting a female. Everyone here seems 100% sure that's the case so I'm asking for proof?

No we don't know the precise nature of how Khelif's DSD presents but we do have a lot of information about the general pathway these types of male DSDs take.

Caster Semenya's court case was very illuminating and it's a reasonable assumption that Khelif is similar.

If you are male and you've been through male puberty then you're not any sort of female. You're male with a medical condition. In the world of sport this might give you a disadvantage compared to men with no medical condition but a massive advantage compared to women.

Women's sport cannot be a consolation prize for any male who doesn't make the grade for men's sport for whatever reason.

Yes please

You are asking to see someone's private medical information - only one person can show that to you. If they did and it showed female the 'witch hunt' would go away.

You have already been presented with evidence on this thread. If that's not enough for you fine but for most of us it seems pretty solid. Nobody is harassing anyone. Strange accusation.

There's actually been no evidence I've seen. A lot of conjecture based on partial information. No actual test results. Nothing real to prove one way or the other.

Because they've had two independently checked tests. The IOC slipped up yesterday and all but confirmed it. Another boxing organisation also confirmed it.

The tests have said they have XY chromosomes.

It's my understanding that given the appearance of these two boxers, there's only one possible DSD that fits the bill.

But it shouldn't even matter.

They failed an eligibility test.

That's it.

The only reason people are discussing the finer details, because the IOC have ignored that eligibility test fail.

If you don't want people to drill down into what's going on, blame the IOC for ignoring it all.