Can someone explain the Khelif controversy?

[whatsinanameisthis]

I’ll start by saying I’ve read all the major news outlets coverage of the Khelif controversy and am still somewhat baffled. So wondering if anyone who has done more research than I can enlighten me.

From what I’ve read in the papers, Khelif was born a girl, is female, has lived her whole life as a woman. She is not trans, or a man. However she maybe has a condition which leads to elevated testosterone?

I’m trying to understand what the accusation is…

Do we think she’s really a trans man who is lying about having been born female?

Or are we saying that if she is a woman but with a condition, that people with that condition should be screened and excluded from the event? I understand that would seem if the condition isn’t her fault but of course differently abled people are all excluded from the mainstream olympics and instead compete in the paralympics. Or if this condition is real (I simply don’t know enough to understand), could the IOC mandate it’s treated before competitors participate?

Or is this even a question of doping? Is there a suggestion she has been taking testosterone to improve her performance?

Obviously just looking at someone isn’t enough. Her / his body is actually really similar to mine when I train a lot (i’m tall, broad shouldered and totally flat chested. Fun fact, i’ve discovered more than one of my exes is gay). I’m not disagreeing with the genetic testing etc, assuming reliable tests have taken place showing xy chromosomes then that’s pretty definitive. But going on appearance to me isn’t a deciding factor.

But going on appearance to me isn’t a deciding factor.

Correct. Nor is a passport, but that's what the ICO are using.

Mainstream media are being really cautious in their reporting.

No, they are actively gaslighting and withholding information from the public. The BBC in their report didn't even say Khelif and Lin had been confirmed to be male, as if the IBA had just called the press conference for shits and giggles. Although they did flounce before the end, tbf.

Meant to quote OP

Not the worst case in the world. The worst case in the world of course would be a man killing a woman. Or a nuclear war.

Yes, it would be the worst case scenario here, she didn't mean it be the worse case everrrrr obviously 🙄 it's quite telling how you minimise the idea of a man killing a woman by punching her on live TV.

You did see the post from Chersfrozenface?

The current WBO and WBA men's welterweight (same category, approx 63–67 kg) champion, Terence Crawford, is 173cm tall.

The current WBC men's welterweight champion, Mario Barrios, is 178cm tall.

The current IBF men's welterweight champion, Jaron Ennis, is 178cm tall.

Khelif is bang on in comparison with male boxers in the same weight category.

All those three current champions may be 'statistical outliers' too if we’re being extremely charitable, but it doesn’t look that unusual, in fact.

I guess my worry is the absolute worst case scenario is this is a woman who is basically being bullied for not being pretty enough and being too good at boxing. If this were true how awful would that be.

I'm not buying that any female could reach their mid 20s without ever having a single period while pursuing a high level sporting career and it not ring a single alarm bell.
Even if DSDs haven't crossed anyone's mind then at the very least the idea that the athlete is doing some very wrong nutritionally or is harbouring an undiscovered tumour must have occurred to people and given them cause to do some investigations.

And speaking of outliers, the average height for males is Algeria is 169.7cm, and for females is 158.5cm.

Khelif is very nearly 20cm (well over 7 and a half inches) taller than the average Algerian woman.

Pretty tall for an Algerian man, too.

Also what is this 'not being pretty enough'?

It's about sex characteristics, nothing to do with attractiveness.

Not to mention that there are lots of other 'not pretty' very good female boxers.
While Khelif is also apparently not too good because they have lost 9 fight. People can't have it both ways - you can't be being singled out and picked on for being to good but also be clearly not male because you lose loads.

@whatsinanameisthis

It's Genderists who think being a woman is based on perceived femininity and attractiveness.

They think we want to exclude people who are not attractive or feminine enough from the category of women.
Whereas we exclude only people who are not women from the category of women.

As people have said on this thread several times, where categories exist, proof of eligibility should be provided (proof matching the actual criteria so weight in kg for weight, and chromosome text for sex). This would put to bed most of the debating points.

What would remain in discussion about whether sex segregation is wanted/needed and what to do with males who seek to compete with females. There is plenty to disagree about on these matters relating to safety, fairness and inclusion. It's crazy that debate is happening about proof of eligibility. It's only happening to obfuscate discussion about safety and fairness.

@whatsinanameisthis
The Obama nationality/passport question is a good analogy. Except that it's the other way around -
Obama's nationality = the IBA's tests and
Republican questioners = the IOC the boxers and everyone else casting doubt.

Also what is this 'not being pretty enough'?

I personally think Khelif is quite handsome. That's not what this is about. Just not a woman.

It seems that he’s actually a mediocre male boxer who didn’t begin to make real headway against good female boxers until he gained access to top notch training.

The IBA notified the IOC in June of 2023 of Khelifs results. The IOC, whether they considered the IBA to be reputable or not, could and should have conducted their own testing to either disprove or verify the IBAs claims. They chose not to. This could have been done before Khelif ever entered the world stage thus preserving their dignity and privacy. Khelif also chose not to appeal the ban as doing so would have made the results public via CAS. Even if you think IBA are corrupt, why didn't the IOC undertake their own testing to ensure eligibility if they felt the motivation for the tests was questionable?

Oh. And anyone who is biologically female is "female enough". There is no right or wrong way to be a woman. The issue is not appearance or conformity to femininity, it's biological sec and a condition that means Khelif likely went through a male puberty, has all the advantages that confers in sport and that it is unsafe and unfair to expect women to put themselves at risk by competing against her. The IOC had a duty of care to ALL their boxers to ensure that the sport remains equitable and safe.

The IOC, whether they considered the IBA to be reputable or not, could and should have conducted their own testing to either disprove or verify the IBAs claims. They chose not to.

They chose not to, because their approach is entirely self ID. They also don't care if the two boxers are male, because they are fully supportive of men in female sports. They're only annoyed that people are highlighting it and it's causing negative publicity.

Precisely this. I believe it's being used as a litmus test to see how much pushback there'd be if they openly allowed men who identified as women to compete.

100%.

Have a look at this thread @whatsinanameisthis
https://x.com/DrMoragKerr/status/1820571592054992959?t=Yo5ZTYUa8MFNyf3sbLTSaw&s=19

It really is highly improbable that this is a female boxer who just "isn't pretty".
There have been quite a few female athletes who have been sneered at for being supposedly masculine looking. All of them were clearly female in body shape. Khelif has NO female characteristics at all in his body shape, head and neck, the way he sits and moves. No female athlete in the past has looked exactly like a man in every way. And if someone who looks and moves exactly like a man has a chromosome test that shows they have the chromosomes of a man, how likely is it that they're a woman?

And if someone who looks and moves exactly like a man has a chromosome test that shows they have the chromosomes of a man, how likely is it that they're a woman?

Exactly like Caster Semenya, who the same arguments were made about, but with full disclosure turned out to be 46 XY 5-ARD, ie male.

Sorry meant to quote @FictionalCharacter

I love the idea that this is down to JKR's definition of 'not female enough'.

How fucking desperate can you get?

Or that there is a level of pink fluffy femininity that somehow some female boxers are able to make but other aren't.
If you are defining female by 'girly' surely any women who builds muscle and hits people would fail to be included not just two of them.