Transgirl teen in girls spaces

[WhatTheHellIsThisBollox]

Found out that a 15yr old transgirl is using the girls toilets and changing rooms in my DC's local secondary school. Told by staff. Different year group to my DC.

Several girls haven't taken part in PE since this decision was made.

This is in Wales. I fully support the rights of anyone to live their life, but this? No way. I didn't think that this was allowed in schools anymore.

I mean that is patently false. There are children who identify themselves as transgender.

Again you’re just attacking a straw man and not engaging with what I’m actually saying. Should children be allowed to mutilate their body or invade opposite sex spaces because of their current identification? Of course not. Should we recognise their distress and find safe and non-harmful ways to promote their wellbeing? Absolutely.

None of that requires affirmation of their mental ill health, supporting the lie that a human can change sex, or believing that efforts to mimic the opposite sex are beneficial for anyone.

Oh OP, I'd be furious. I would take my daughter out of PE completely if this were to occur at our school and kick up an almighty fuss. I don't know any parents who would find this acceptable. Honestly what message does this send to our wonderful girls?!? Boys are more important than you. This boils my blood.

Widely share on the parents groups. Speak to the head, write to the governors and local MP. I wouldn't stop until this was tackled. Poor girls.

I don't think any reasonable person would be opposed to that

No and it is utterly insulting to reduce the very real risks faced by trans-identified people to that. Read some of the accounts of children referenced in the report I linked to.

I would have hoped not, hence my disappointment to see comments suggesting we tell such children to get over it and just use spaces where they are at risk of abuse, harassment and distress. I think such attitudes are detrimental not only to trans-identified children, but also to girls. The safety and well-being issue for trans-identified children is a real one, and the failure to provide a solution has been exploited by activists pushing a ‘solution’ that violates the dignity and safety of girls.

The thing is, to respect girls' safety, privacy and dignity, it's going to be necessary to burst the transgirl's bubble.

Why can't I change with the girls?
Because you're not a girl.

And that after the school staff may well have allowed the child to wear the female uniform, if there is one, agreed to use a traditionally female name and female pronouns and forced everyone in the school to do the same.

It's a mess.

59% of schoolgirls reported being subjected to sexual harassment in past year in 2014, I doubt it’s got any better. https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201617/cmselect/cmwomeq/91/9105.htm

Women and girls have to change their behaviour all the time to reduce that risk.

I’d like to see that same energy and concern the school is showing for one male transgirl applied to reducing risk for girls too.

Can I ask, because I really don't get it, what's the problem with a trans girl doing a wee or a poo in the girls toilet?

Because a trans girl is male.

And it's a girls' toilet.

He's a boy.

Same as any other boy using a Girls toilet

This would be described as 'gender incongruent' or 'gender dysphoric' or 'gender non conforming'. The Cass Review is worth a read.

We're kind of saying the same thing @TicklishLemur

You agree biological males should not be in single sex female spaces, you agree they should not be allowed to mutilate their bodies, so what I'm saying is we need to take it a step further back.

If we agree that biological males can't be in female spaces, that means that we don't think biological males can be females and that therefore means that trans isn't a thing.

Because otherwise if transwomen were indeed women, then none of these discussions would be happening. Of course TW can go in female spaces because they're female aren't they.

But they're not.

So the problem comes right back to the initial idea that someone can be born in the wrong body, or is transgender. No one is born in the wrong body. It isn't a thing.

I have no idea how to roll back the lie that has been sold to teenagers now that they might be transgender. The damage has been done to so many already.

Ive read that back and it doesn't say what I'm trying to say. It's in my head and I can't get it out.
'Trans' is someone who suffers from gender dysphoria and believes they should have been the opposite sex.
What trans are not IS the opposite sex.
The mistake started when we all had to pretend twaw.
TW are TW - men who believe they are the opposite sex, but are in fact, not.

Actually I’d argue that a large part of the issue is attitudes such as your’s. Providing trans-identifying children with a private space to go to the toilet and get changed has no harmful effect on girls.

But in this case no private space is being provided, only the girls' facilities, and that does have a harmful effect on girls.

I would actually remove " believe" and replace it with "wants to be"

If you'd read the OP you'd realize this isn't about bloody toilets but changing rooms. Rooms where by definition girls - many of whom will be feeling awkward about their bodies anyway without exposing them to the opposite sex - get undressed.

Or maybe you have read the OP but pretending it's about toilets better fits the TRA strategy of minimizing things down to "they just want to pee." (Spoiler alert- there's many things that might attract teenage boys into the girls' toilets beyond that one.)

Absolutely. WHY does a male is not feel safe in male spaces. Toxic masculinity & homophobia is transing young gay males who are being brainwashed to believe a trans "daughter" is more acceptable than a gay son.

I can't believe yours can be a serious question @mansplainingsincethe90s, but in case it it...

1. Men commit 99% of sexual crimes
2. TW retain their male pattern violence, in fact their sexual crime rates are WORSE then men
3. Mixed sex facilities are less safe for women. 90 % of sexual assault which occur in changing rooms occur in the mixed sex facilities, despite mixed sex facilities only making up 50% of all facilities.

I have read it in full. Gender dysphoric, gender non-conforming and gender incongruent all have individual and differing definitions. That is true for both in the Cass report and their use in wider research. None of those terms used alone sufficiently describes all the causes and presentations of children who identify as transgender. Trans-identified children covers all children who identify as transgender, without giving credence to the notion that a child (or any person) actually can be ‘transgender’.

We agree in some areas, but the area of disagreement is vital and the approach you’re advocating for is harmful in my opinion.

It is possible to recognise the illogical and harmful stance pushed by gender ideology, whilst also recognising that some children and young people believe and identify with it. Such people are highly vulnerable and typically dealing with significant distress and mental ill health. Approaches that minimise harm and promote wellbeing, without encouraging delusion or violating the rights of others are warranted. Approaches that lack compassion or involve forceful attempts to change a child’s mind will not be of benefit, and are completely unnecessary to achieve the goal of protecting girls.

Agreed, that is completely wrong. I just object to the non sequitur that suggests alternative provisions should not be provided. In fact, I’d argue that the failure to provide them is a key pillar used by TRAs fighting for the removal of sex based rights.

Thanks for sharing that.

I read the first one, the section on education, and it's mostly lumping in LGBT. The only bit that focuses on 'trans' is also covering higher and further ed, so it's not really applicable to children:

'13% of trans men and women in education
said they had experienced being excluded from activities'

The only reference I can find specific to those with gender issues while at school is this:

'Of the trans respondents who were transitioning
while at school, 36% said their school was very or somewhat supportive
of their specific needs. Only 13% of trans respondents said that their
teachers were very or somewhat understanding of the issues facing
trans pupils.'

Neither of these are talking about harassment or bullying of children who are gender incongruent while using spaces congruent with sex.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, and it could be that that specific research just hasn't been done. Or it could be that it's not in fact the problem that is often implied.

Then I also agree @TicklishLemur that society has created an absolute mess for our current youth. I have absolutely no idea how we can possibly unravel it.

Amd I agree with you that as this child has already been told it, so it is too late for him, so I'll take back my comment when applied to this particular boy.

But it is how I would approach this mess going forward. From now, from today, to stop it getting worse, never push the trans notion on any 'new' child.

Approaches that minimise harm and promote wellbeing, without encouraging delusion or violating the rights of others are warranted. Approaches that lack compassion or involve forceful attempts to change a child’s mind will not be of benefit, and are completely unnecessary to achieve the goal of protecting girls.

I can see where you're at with this, but there remains the problem of telling a boy who is convinced that he is a girl that he cannot use the same facilities as the girls because he's not a girl. I mean, what other reason could possibly be given?

The only solution is to teach children right from the start that no-one can change sex and that there are times and situations when sex matters.