Transgirl teen in girls spaces

[WhatTheHellIsThisBollox]

Found out that a 15yr old transgirl is using the girls toilets and changing rooms in my DC's local secondary school. Told by staff. Different year group to my DC.

Several girls haven't taken part in PE since this decision was made.

This is in Wales. I fully support the rights of anyone to live their life, but this? No way. I didn't think that this was allowed in schools anymore.

A pretty naive attitude. We don’t think a civil request for decent behaviour is sufficient to make it safe for males of any identification to enter the female toilets. Why do you believe it is any more likely to protect this trans-identified boy from abuse and harassment?

Of course we should be challenging bullying and harassment, but we also need to take steps to protect those who are vulnerable. Those steps should not remove protections from the girls, but allowing a child to use an individual toilet does no such thing.

Can expand on how the provision of such an alternative would have any detrimental effect on the girls?

Can expand on how the provision of such an alternative would have any detrimental effect on the girls?

For a start its common when a 3rd space is provided for it to be taken away from Girls, thats what happened at my DDs school, one of the Girls toilets was repurposed.I fully support 3rd spaces but again, it seems that girls are the ones asked to "Be Kind" about it all

Any evidence of that risk to trans identifying males? Because it's suggested frequently, but I'm not sure I've ever seen evidence to support it.

Because trans-identified children are not just like other children. They are an extremely vulnerable cohort, as evidenced by the backgrounds of the children referred to the Tavistock clinic. Beyond high rates of abuse, mental health comorbidity is exceedingly high.

Taking reasonable steps to minimise their intense psychological distress, and to provide them with the sense of safety that is so often missing from their lives, is exactly the right thing to do. Of course those steps should not involve letting them use opposite sex facilities to the detriment of girls.

Several girls haven't taken part in PE

This is appalling.

Read my comment again, I’m talking about an alternative provision not the violation of single sex female spaces.

Can't the trans child change in the boys once the other boys have changed. It shouldn't take more than 5 minutes?
The other girls and the other boys shouldn't lose any space/time due to one child's preference.

I’m absolutely opposed to any action that removes space from girls. What I am concerned about is the refusal to consider reasonable compromises for example allowing the child to use an individual toilet, or to get changed early for PE. These are small and reasonable adjustments to support a child in distress.

Yes:

'To propose that the Senedd:

1. Notes the publication of the Cass review.
2. Notes that NHS Wales commissions gender identity services for children and young people 17 and under from NHS England.
3. Notes that NHS England has concluded there is not enough evidence to support the safety or clinical effectiveness of puberty suppressing hormones for the treatment of gender dysphoria in children and young people at this time.
4. Notes the Welsh Government will continue to develop the transgender guidance for schools taking account of the Cass review and stakeholder views.'

https://record.senedd.wales/Plenary/13906#C587117

They deferred voting, I can't find a record of a vote, but I think that was the motion passed in the end. Sorry, not v familiar with the Senedd website/processes.

Cass said very clearly, as does the school guidance, that 'social transition' is not a neutral act. Schools are not able to make medical assessments of things like 'gender dysphoria'. So it's not that straightforward.

@TicklishLemur

There is NO SUCH THING AS TRANS IDENTIFIED CHILDREN.

There are children who are struggling with their identity as they go through puberty with all the hormones that involves. Allowing them to believe they were born in the wrong body is NOT HELPING THEM.

The numbers of autistic teenage girls who are now identifying as trans is growing at an awful rate and we are doing so much damage to these poor girls.

Sorry, the school guidance did't say that 'social transition' is not neutral, but talks about the second part of my paragraph, that's a very badly constructed post but I'm in a hurry !

Does anyone know if the Cass report is relevant to Welsh Government?

Unfortunately the Senedd has voted, on 1st May, against a motion calling for the Welsh Government to accept the recommendations of the Cass report - 14 in favour of the motion, 38 against. The MSs to vote in favour were Conservatives.

Thanks, I couldn't find reference to the vote? Only the debate.

Ah, got it:

https://www.theyworkforyou.com/senedd/?id=2024-05-01.9.587347.h

The Senedd website is not easy to navigate, to say the least.

This is the page on the original Conservative motion without amendment.

https://record.senedd.wales/VoteOutcome/13906/?#V5156

So, this motion was passed:

'To propose that the Senedd:

1. Notes the publication of the Cass review.
2. Notes that NHS Wales commissions gender identity services for children and young people 17 and under from NHS England.
3. Notes that NHS England has concluded there is not enough evidence to support the safety or clinical effectiveness of puberty suppressing hormones for the treatment of gender dysphoria in children and young people at this time.
4. Notes the Welsh Government will continue to develop the transgender guidance for schools taking account of the Cass review and stakeholder views.'

One could certainly argue for consideration of the Cass review when talking to schools?

Anything Scotland can do....

These are the people who kept us safe by not allowing us to buy socks.

The Cass Report is very relevant to Wales since there is no in-country service for children who are distressed about their sex, so Welsh children were among those treated by the Tavistock and will still get referred to the new centres.

I wouldn't necessarily be too concerned about the vote in the Senedd, although the contributions from one Labour MS and Plaid Cymru were a very depressing blast from the past. I think there are positive developments happening where it counts, although there will be an inevitable pushback from activists.

The adult service in Wales is causing a lot of concern because it is so activist driven and slapdash about prescribing to very young adults almost on demand. They and TRAs are involved in trying to develop a child and adolescent gender identity service in Wales.

The Cass model would actually suit the geography and demographics of Wales a lot better, so sticking to a dogmatic, Cardiff-centric model is very clearly about the ideology and politics, not about getting the best possible healthcare and support for individual children who may be distressed or confused about their sex (usually alongside other issues).

When I was at secondary school over 20 years ago the one trans girl got changed in the toilets rather than either changing room. The girls toilet though, obviously 🙄 at least there were cubicles I suppose.

Everyone needs a safe space to get changed but I don’t understand why it’s always the girls who have to give theirs up.

It’s so hard these days for girls to take a stand against this without being targeted and shamed for it. Such a shame that they’re missing PE for it but good for them for not just going along with it because they think they have to.

There has been a big push for disabled children to be in mainstream education rather than special schools where possible. This was in part to help children see that they are not scary and are people just like them with feelings but that have something about them that makes life difficult. Children getting used to seeing others in wheelchairs etc helps them to be understanding and hopefully carry that forward into adulthood.

Why can't the same be children who think they are trans? Boys should be taught that they can share toilets etc with boys who prefer to present as girls and that that's ok. It doesn't harm them and that dressing differently is not something to be afraid of being around.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5b3cb6b6ed915d39fd5f14df/GEO-LGBT-Survey-Report.pdf
Self selected sample, so far from ideal, however it had over 100,000 responses so a very large cohort of LGBT people. The area covering education is brief and focuses far too heavily on children being taught about gender identity but also shows high rates of harassment of LGBT students, particularly so for those who are trans-identified.

Another report is by stonewall. Obviously they are not an organisation I support, but again research is inadequate and limited. It also shows high rates of bullying and abuse of all LGBT students, and higher still for trans-identified children. It does include examples that have only occurred due to schools allowing trans-identified children to use opposite sex facilities. But mostly it discusses completely unacceptable verbal, physical and sexual harassment unrelated to such violations.
https://www.stonewall.org.uk/system/files/the_school_report_2017.pdf

Thank GOD they changed.

So by 'at risk' you mean that someone might correctly sex them?

The school guidance includes the kinds of adjustments I have mentioned here. Social transition such as using alternative sex pronouns or allowing children to wear a uniform of the opposite sex (where uniforms are different) requires specialist support and should not be pushed by school staff according to the guidance. However, supporting distressed children and making reasonable adjustments where there is a risk to their wellbeing absolutely is their responsibility.