Transgirl teen in girls spaces

[WhatTheHellIsThisBollox]

Found out that a 15yr old transgirl is using the girls toilets and changing rooms in my DC's local secondary school. Told by staff. Different year group to my DC.

Several girls haven't taken part in PE since this decision was made.

This is in Wales. I fully support the rights of anyone to live their life, but this? No way. I didn't think that this was allowed in schools anymore.

Yup . They seem determined to piss on everything - especially if it belongs to women .
You'd think they would understand by now as it has been explained SO MANY TIMES that women and girls are different from men and boys and that those sex-related differences matter .

Why don't trans kids just change in the Accessible toilets ?

I have several friends with trans kids and non binary and I have to say a lot are stressed and unhappy kids.

fly higher,
Because that does not play into the whole' I am entitled to be in your space' theory.

They should not have been allowed or encouraged to take this route in the first place.

It is almost as if social transition in schools is a bad idea.

@WhatTheHellIsThisBollox I realise we've all strayed quite a long way from your original post. Did you speak to anyone about this at the school today? I hope you've got some support.

Then the school should supply that option since they.created this mess by.ignoring the privacy and dignity of all these girls for the sake of one screwed up.kid.

I think cass made it clear social transition was not a neutral act. Poor kid is now committed to maintaining this whole thing.

However girls should not be made to absorb the consequences of this. I’m actually in favour if third spaces for kids who are struggling, thats fine but it’s not an issue for other children to solve. Thats on the school to resolve.

This, what’s good for the goose and all that. If it’s ok to make womens spaces less safe for women by allowing men into them why is not ok for transwomen to be less safe. They are at less risk of catastrophic harm than women.

I was very struck by the contrast in the figures posted by TicklishLemur from Stonewall report and the figures from the government report on the impact of sexual assault and violence on girls in school. The figures are looking at different things so I’m just going to highlight the most comparable below

Some of the key findings about the harassment faced by children based on their trans-identification:

1. 51% have suffered bullying
2. […]
3. […]
4. […]
5. 6% have suffered sexual assault
6. […]

25% and 20% of bullying against trans-identified children occurred in changing rooms and toilets respectively.

From the government report https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201617/cmselect/cmwomeq/91/9105.htm 

*A number of large scale surveys find girls and young women consistently reporting high levels of sexual harassment and sexual violence in school:

1. […]
2. Almost a third (29%) of 16–18-year-old girls say they have experienced unwanted sexual touching at school.
3. […]
4. Nearly three-quarters (71%) of all 16–18-year-olds (boys and girls) say they hear sexual name-calling with terms such as “slut” or “slag” used towards girls at schools on a daily basis or a few times a week.*

29% girls have experienced unwanted sexual touching ie. been sexually assaulted

6% trans children have been sexually assaulted

It looks to be significantly safer to be a transgirl than a girl at school

Only 25% of the bullying of trans children occurred in changing rooms and only 20% occurred in the toilets. This surprised me given we’re constantly told it would be dangerous for transgirls to use the male toilets. It’s a space away from teachers where bullying occurs anyway but thats not where most of the bullying occurs for trans children.

Bullying covers a multitude of behaviours including name calling. The incidence of sexual name calling against girls suggests it’s still worse for girls.

Ideally no children would suffer harm at school and more moves need to be made to reduce it but right now the available statistics show it’s more dangerous to be a girl at school than a transgirl.

If the girls shouldn't have a problem sharing toilets with a member of the opposite sex, why should the transgirl have a problem sharing with members of the same sex?

Because these people don't recognise sex as important or relevant, only "gender". Which is clearly nonsense.

It all comes back to the fundamental, rigid ideological belief they have. No disagreement can be allowed and dissenters must be cast out or punished or forced to recant.

Acknowledging sex and not gender acknowledges that "trans girls" are not girls, they are boys. They can't allow that.

So in schools with trans boys I wonder which changing rooms they use? Boys or girls??

I see so far we have:

'if women and girls have something nicer than what men have, even if it's the men's fault, men and boys should be entitled to take it away from them and use it themselves'

and

'poor sad and vulnerable boy, he'd be safe with the girls from the nasty boys and nice girls should want to protect him'.

aka: you have a vagina: you're everybody's mummy. And mummy puts herself last, takes care of everyone else selflessly and takes only the scraps left over when everyone else's needs have been met.

This is just as sexist as fuck.

The answer to a boy's problems cannot ever include using girls or their spaces as resources for him. The girls are equal human beings to him. Get your heads around it.

The child has to be told he's a boy not a girl and needs to use boys' facilities. Informing him that rules apply to him too is not a bad thing. We are not doing children any favours by teaching them to be mentally fragile. How will they function when they leave school?

I cannot get my head around someone who thinks the answer to a boy's distress is to make girls distressed. It's like some kind of ritual sacrifice.

Unfortunately the adult world is also colluding with men who claim to be women as evidenced by the female nurses who objected to a trans woman(aka man) using their women’s changing rooms at work. However they have been told by their employers the Darlington &Durham NHS trust they must ‘broaden their minds and be more inclusive’. Apparently the trans woman/man has got a pregnant girlfriend so he is a sexually active man!

In the interests if accuracy, he told the nurses openly that he was trying to get his girlfriend pregnant.

But yes, sexually active with a fully functioning penis.

So the Trust presumably wants the nurses to broaden their minds so far as to believe that a woman can get another woman pregnant, thus ignoring actual human biology. I'm not sure that's a good thing in the fields of medicine and healthcare.

Their maternity unit must be a hoot.

The school needs to provide a third, gender-neutral option then. Ironic that PPs want to shield this person from boys' violence/harassment, but it's presumably ok for this person to be a risk to girls?

I object to the notion that we can only protect one group of children at a time. I think most here would agree that the sexual harassment and abuse of girls is a pervasive problem throughout schools. What I don’t understand is why that makes it wrong to offer well thought out compromises for other groups at risk, providing they do not impinge on the rights of others.

Feminism rightly focuses on the needs of women and girls, but the schools themselves need to safeguard all children. I also think there is a difference between centring women and girls, and being actively obstructive of protections for other groups. Just to be clear I’m not saying you’re doing so in your comment @TrainedByCats , but rather that was the sense I got in some of the earlier ones which triggered my unease.

@TicklishLemur Yes all children should be safeguarded and the same rules apply to all. Trans lobby groups have been campaigning to give males access to unconsenting girls when they are undressed and vulnerable for years, so maybe that's why so many parents are fed up of it?
womansplaceuk.org/2018/06/25/references-to-removal-of-single-sex-exemptions/

In most schools a 3rd option is possible. These have to managed carefully in some secondary schools/ 6th form colleges to avoid them being used for sex (Hope this doesn't offend anyone who didn't know this) .

Gender distressed children need to be safeguarded but trans policies impact other children too- including girls, CSA survivors and children of transitioners, who all need to be able to call a male a male for their safety and privacy.

This has been ignored by many schools trans policies- the Church of England schools 'VAGC' trans policy for example, funded by Stonewall, is one of the worst. It targets girls/ Children of transitioners/ CSA survivors for bullying because they can't pretend a boy/ male teacher is a girl if he says so, or consent to getting undressed in front of males who say they are female.

@TicklishLemur i don’t know why you called my post out to say I object to the notion that we can only protect one group of children at a time

I fucking said Ideally no children would suffer harm at school and more moves need to be made to reduce it

but and this is a really fucking huge but

looking at the stats from that government report together with those from the Stonewall report it is clear girls suffer significantly more harm at school than boys identifying as girls

However the current measures all seemed to be focussed on the boys desires despite the fact they are clearly causing more harm to many girls for every boy helped (placated/indulged pick which word you think applies)

We must stop the measures that are harming girls, they are causing more harm to many more people, people who according to the stats are more at risk than the people being helped.And actually look at the available data, including the Cass report to see what would be more helpful for those boys. Much of that data is suggesting not socially transitioning those boys at schools would be more helpful for them too.

I quoted your post because it was made in reply to the statistics I linked to. I posted those stats because some users here denied or were in doubt about the vulnerability of trans-identified children, and that was used as a justification for not offering those children access to a single user toilet where available. As I stated in my original post, my reply was not accusing you of doing so, but rather touching on those earlier remarks.

I think it should also be noted that the majority of trans-identified children are now female and many come from backgrounds of trauma making them more vulnerable still. The statistics I quoted referred only to incidents where children have been targeted specifically due to their trans-identification. Obviously trans-identified girls will also face the same risk of harassment and abuse as other girls in addition.

However, the single sex spaces where girls can escape male violence (or should be able to were males not being given access due to identification) can also be spaces where significant numbers of trans-identified girls face bullying. The percentages of trans-identified children who have been bullied, assaulted etc. for any reason are also higher than the figures posted. I excluded those figures so as to focus only on cases where trans-identification was the sole reason.

I have read Dr Cass’ report in full, as I stated earlier in this thread. Incorrect assumptions have been made about my posts several times now. I am not in support of social transition or any kind of intervention beyond psychological support to alleviate distress and challenge harmful thought patterns. All I am arguing against is a refusal to consider individual and compassionate responses for those children, which do not undermine the rights of other children to single sex spaces. Trans-identification is not the sole reason a child may need an individual adjustment regarding toilets or changing rooms. I discussed a different example where this was appropriate, from my time as a TA, further up the thread.