Transgirl teen in girls spaces

[WhatTheHellIsThisBollox]

Found out that a 15yr old transgirl is using the girls toilets and changing rooms in my DC's local secondary school. Told by staff. Different year group to my DC.

Several girls haven't taken part in PE since this decision was made.

This is in Wales. I fully support the rights of anyone to live their life, but this? No way. I didn't think that this was allowed in schools anymore.

@theDudesmummy

This!

If bullying is a problem then the bullying needs to be dealt with.

If boys are bullying another boy because of how he dresses or presents, that is an issue to be dealt with the same way as other bullying.

Do schools commonly separate out bullied children to use different facilities?

Yes - and boys need to be told they don't get to override girls needs or consent. Its a very bad message.

I can never understand why the parents of a trans identifying boy think it's acceptable for their son to use female facilities.

If the girls are telling their parents then surely they are not telling them it's ok and they need to welcome this boy? Are the girls do brain washed and/or socialised to think this is ok?

But then I suppose I tell my children you can't change sex and that men should never use single sex female facilities. If there is a man/boy there then they just leave because the risks are too great.

If the girls shouldn't have a problem sharing toilets with a member of the opposite sex, why should the transgirl have a problem sharing with members of the same sex?

People need to accept that they are what they are and get on with it. No one needs to change gender, gender is so subjective your idea of women will be different to mine anyway. We have the same but other way round a "trans-boy". It is isn't just girls who get uncomfortable, many of the boys aren't comfortable with a girl being in their spaces for privacy - especially at that secondary school age.

Agreed that the first report is brief and largely inadequate in terms of education. I included it because it gives a good picture of challenges faced by trans-identified people in general, was government commissioned (though their stance at the time was highly affirmative) and contained a large cohort of LGBT people.

The Stonewall report is far more detailed regarding issues faced by children in schools. I’m sure that some will disregard it because of the harmful role Stonewall have played in these issues, but all of these responses are from real children facing real issues. They ought to be addressed in a way that protects those children without harming others. Some of the key findings about the harassment faced by children based on their trans-identification:

1. 51% have suffered bullying
2. 33% feel unsafe in school
3. 13% have suffered physical assault
4. 9% have suffered death threats
5. 6% have suffered sexual assault
6. 4% have been threatened with a weapon

25% and 20% of bullying against trans-identified children occurred in changing rooms and toilets respectively. Even higher rates have occurred in other areas of school life such as during lessons, but bullying in changing rooms and toilets is a particular safeguarding risk. This is both due to the decreased visibility of these spaces to adults and the increased vulnerability children feel when changing or using the toilet.

Finally I wanted to quote a selection of comments from children surveyed:

1. For the first few months after I came out, entire classes would chant ‘chick with a dick’ at me, in PE people would pull down my shorts and pants, groups petitioned to ban me from toilets and changing rooms and joining PE.
2. I frequently got asked if I was a boy or a girl and was called names like shim, hermaphrodite etc. I got pushed in corridors, kicked and told I was a nervous wreck when I would cry about bullying.
3. No one wanted to talk to me or sit by me in class. A few times people said ‘dyke’ or ‘tranny’ under their breath, just when I walked in or sat down
4. I was always terrified to use the girls’ toilets, because when I used them in the past, other students would shout at me, give me weird looks, laugh at me, tell their friends and teachers because they thought I was a boy using the girls’ toilets. I was so afraid of going to the toilets, that for about four years of secondary school I never used the school toilets. (N.B. This is a report from a trans-identified female about using female toilets.)

So yes I do believe there is a serious issue regarding the mistreatment of trans-identified children. I absolutely agree that we need to tackle bullying at a societal level, and stamp out intolerance towards gender non-conformity particularly from males. But I don’t think that stating that it shouldn’t occur, and therefore refusing to adopt reasonable measures to protect those children, is an adequate response. Nor do I think it provides any benefit to girls, or to the wider gender critical movement.

I absolutely agree and hope that the new guidance against teaching gender ideology will help to decrease confusion and minimise distress. I think these things can be achieved while also promoting exploratory and compassionate approaches for children who are distressed.

As you say, it's happening everywhere. Under a Tory government. Not Labour, Lib Dem or anyone else. Do you honestly believe that the lying, cheating Tory party will be bothered with toilets in state schools?

I have worked in several school and now visit a variety (only about 20 schools but it gives a fair range). All schools I have been to have male/female/gender neutral toilets.

If there was a risk to the safety or well-being of that child then I think it would be appropriate to offer that.

As a retired TA I remember a child I supported being physically attacked by bullies in the toilet. It was completely unrelated to gender issues - he had been bullied due to his learning disabilities and autism. He was understandably very scared to go back into the boys toilets and we allowed him to use one of the single room teacher toilets until his confidence had built back up.

Obviously the students who attacked him were dealt with. There was also a school wide response to tackle bullying culture and safeguarding policy was reconsidered. Making compassionate adjustments to support a child is not incompatible with addressing bullying and abuse systemically.

1. For the first few months after I came out, entire classes would chant ‘chick with a dick’ at me, in PE people would pull down my shorts and pants, groups petitioned to ban me from toilets and changing rooms and joining PE.

I was bullied horrendously in school and am actually in therapy at the moment due to ongoing issues related to that bullying. I absolutely do not condone bullying in any form because of this but cannot class these petitions as bullying. If that boy was forcing his way into the girls' toilets and changing rooms then I totally support the girls in standing up for themselves

This

I agree that the child should not be able to use opposite sex facilities. But I do believe this highlights the vulnerability of such children and why it would be perfectly reasonable to make an adjustment such as allowing them to get changed before/after other children, or within an individual room if one was available.

Edit just to add - I’m so sorry to hear about the bullying you faced and effects on your life. I hope the therapy helps you to heal. I think this kind of abuse against children is far too often overlooked and even tolerated.

It’s a boy thing. Girls don’t lose their rights, let the staff & other pupils fight it out.

The trans day of remembrance lists of trans people killed each year, the majority are murdered trans women killed by men. Remembering Our Dead (translivesmatter.info)
There are many links that come up on a quick google about trans school children experiencing bullying, here is one picked fairly at random: What We Know About Trans Youth and Bullying | Psychology Today

How about this for an idea? Cannot conjure up a 'special' facility over night, so
instead of this boy being in the changing room with girls in their underwear or less, if showers are communal, said teenager stops doing PE.
That way, the girls can have their facilities back.

One big problem is that if you allow feminine boys who declare themselves to be transgirls to access the comparative safety of the girls' changing room.... or even the safety of separate facilities.... and you don't allow this to other feminine boys... then you're poviding a very strong motive for any feminine-seeming boy to declare himself a transgirl. Feminine boys (a higher proportion of whom grow up to be gay than trans) do tend to get told they are girls and/or think life might just be easier if they were girls.

Schools that allow children to avoid a scary situation with other boys by declaring a trans identity are helping to create a pipleine towards transition.

'in the UK at least, a trans person is less likely to be murdered than the average person'

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-how-many-trans-people-murdered-uk

I'm looking for stats on children in UK schools experiencing 'gender incongruence'.

@BestZebbie
I've looked on your link. Tragic though all deaths are, the last one listed is September 2023 and that was a traffic accident in South America. Compared to 4 murders last week for Uk women.

But it’s already happening under a Tory government.Labour’s stance on this issue is shockingly bad, but the Tories have allowed male patients into female hospital wards, men into women’s DV refuges and prisons, male competitors in women’s sports, and the total Stonewall takeover of the police/ NHS/ civil services.

The other parties are even worse.

I have never before voted tories in my life, but in defense of them, most people slept walked in to this a few years ago. Save wonderful women like JKR and look what happened to her then. At least Rishi has this past year realised what is happening under this cult, whereas Keir is still limping about.

I would sadly expect a much larger total of cis women affected by violence even if all others factors were identical due to there being so many more of them than there are trans and genderqueer people of all types...

Please don't use cis unless you know 100% that the person you are referring identifies as such. It's misgendering which we're constantly told is literal violence

I don’t believe it should be a case of offering it to every trans-identified child or something to be considered for that group alone (although I do believe they are the group most likely to need such a provision).

Some trans-identified people focus on an internal ‘identity’ and display limited gender non-conformity. Some would not be distressed or unsafe in single sex toilets. Equally you are absolutely right that some gender non-conforming and/or gay children are at risk, despite not being trans-identified.

I would like all children to feel safe when using the toilet or getting changed. I think there are some rare situations where an alternative provision could be the most appropriate solution to offer to a child. It would all depend on the individual situation.

Even in percentages @BestZebbie , trans are not experiencing a murder or sexual assault rate anywhere near that of women. And, the UK census figures currently show that TW are committing sexual assault at the highest rate of any demographic