Trans people; why is it our responsibility?

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Okay, so trans identifying folks say that they need access to women's spaces because they aren't safe in men's spaces. I get that, but it is a problem caused by men. Therefore the solution should be about men, not women. So why isn't the main focus on targeting these men, campaigning for harsher penalties for such hate crimes? Why instead are they expecting women to compensate them for male behavior, making ourselves feel less safe in the process?

I would love for a trans identifying person to answer that question.
Has anyone here ever asked a trans person this question and received an honest answer?

I'm not hardcore "terf" as I respect everyone's right to decide who and what they are. My problem with it is when it conflicts with other people's rights to safety and security. I would really like to them to tell us why the violent men who cause this problem are being let off the hook and women are the ones targeted with all this anti-terf hate.

Aye and asking them to explain it is denying their existence/wanting them to die/some other hysterical bollocks.

Because it is about validation.
Because it is about putting us in our place.
Because males feel superior females - always have, always will.
Because it makes them feel important.
Because bullies/incels do what bullies/incels like doing.
Because males are, due to their biology, physically stronger than females and we know - quite often from experience or may be just from evolution - that God help us if we disagree or say no.
Because males don't like females saying no, it riles them.
(Obligatory NAMALT)

Because if we do not push back and stand up for ourselves, who will? Keir Starmer and the acolytes?

This is it EXACTLY. You need always to remmeber to put TRA talking points through a translater OP.

"Transwomen aren't safe in men's or even gender neutral toilets" = They are usually perfectly safe but they can only feel "trans joy"* when they are in women's spaces

"TERFS are trying to deny that trans folks exist" = Women do not deny that body dysmorphia exists, but do not accept that a man can put on a dress and immediately become a biological female. This angers said men greatly.

"Trans folk deserve basic human rights" = In this context, human rights means 'Say and believe that I am a woman OR ELSE!!!"

"Trans people deserve proper healthcare" = the taxpayer should pay for our experimental, poorly researched and often disabling hormone treatment and surgery

*"Trans joy" is euphemism for for sexual arousal

This.

It's our responsibility because so are most things when it comes to care, validating feelings and making accommodations.

Easy. Because women are seen as inferior to men. If there’s a conflict between what men want and what women want, then the men’s wishes are more important obviously - because they’re Men. Any women who tries to complain is clearly an evil harridan, purposely upsetting Men and being totally selfish, OK?

Women have to give up their spaces if the Men want them, and after they’ve done that they can make everyone a sandwich and put the hoover round because the Men are busy doing Important Things - because they’re Men.

TLDR: patriarchal, sexist shite.

those women are welcome in women's spaces though (which is why the epithet TERF doesn't actually work for most of us) because - shock! - they are women who would potentially be unsafe in men's spaces.

And as a woman i take their safety, while in a woman's space, very seriously. As much as for any other woman.

And i want men to step up and be the same for transwomen. And/or 3rd spaces.

I'm still catching up, and at the WTF stage.
Surely if we have a 3rd space, it will be taken over by men pretending to be women?
Then women who want to be men and use this space will still be in danger?

So men who pretend to be women, get the women's space, the 3rd space and if they fancy it, the mens space?
So potentially, a man gets all 3 spaces, and a woman, born a woman, wanting to remain a woman gets no space?

Wait til you hear about the Brighton rape survivors groups ...

TimGrantsNoAccessToWomen

I will google it.

Quite simply, the fact transwomen (and it is transwomen, there's a serious lack of demand from transmen or discussion from TRAs about transmen) have been able to change so many things at such high levels is proof in itself that transwomen are not biological women.

If transwomen were women then what they want and how they feel would be considered unimportant and irrelevant and they would never have got such control over policies and practices in so many institutions. They'd be accused of being hysterical or irrational or over emotional and what they wanted would never have been given and sure as shit not so easily at at the direct expense of others.

Ok, so lets accept for a minute that TWAW (which I don't believe) the problem is STILL men as its apparently unsafe for them in mens spaces so why is it womens responsibility to fix it?

I think I am perhaps a hyper terf now. No to men using women's names. No to men wearing skirts (seeing as I have been forced to wear these for being a woman). Any man dressing up as a little girl, wearing dummies or pigtails, calling himself a young girl's name to be investigated for pedophilia.

The ultimate manspreading.

So if a man feels unsafe in a man's space, he gets to make women feel unsafe in the women's space?! I support anyone who wants to call themselves a new name and wear opposite gender clothing. But I draw the line at them saying they're now the opposite gender, when they are not. Also I have issues with them invading female safe spaces.

To go back to the OP , why do the TW feel ‘unsafe’ in male spaces, or at least spaces where intimate functions are being performed by men ( loos, changing rooms, hospital wards, etc). The unease or threat doesn’t seem to extend to male only clubs or societies.

I’ve looked around quite a lot and I can find hardly any examples of TW being attacked or harassed by men under these circumstances ( found ‘several’ cases of women and girls being harassed/ attacked by TW in these places though). The main examples I have found seem to relate to mistaken identity in a sexual situation,where the male client was disappointed or disconcerted , or where two TW had an argument which escalated into physical violence.

I don’t believe that examples of male agression towards TW would be under publicised, tbh. So that leaves non trans identifying men to be interrogated. Those whom I have asked seem to feel that they would be embarrassed and uneasy at the presence of a TW , and would just ‘zip up and get out’ .

I admit that I don’t have any hooligans or brawlers amongst my male acquaintances, though.

Okay, so trans identifying folks say that they need access to women's spaces because they aren't safe in men's spaces

Because this isn’t really the reason, there is no endemic of trans people being beaten up in mens toilets, they just say it as an excuse, I mean seriously, when did you even read about such a thing happening in the news? Yet I have read several stories of trans attacking women and girls in toilets.

The real reason is they just want access to womens spaces.

Exactly.
And the offending rate and nature of offences committed by transwomen remain the same as the male population.

Because they are male.

In fact, I think the rate of sexual offences might be slighter OVER represented in the trans population, but I would have to dig out that statistic. I've definitely read that recently.

Hampstead swimming ponds.

There are 3 swimming ponds on Hampstead heath. They've been there about a 100 years. One for men, one for women, and one mixed.

Anyone can use the mixed pond. So men who are happy to swim with women, and women who are happy to swim with men, have a choice of 2 ponds. Women who need (for example for reasons of religion or trauma) or prefer single sex swimming have 1 pond. As do men who want a single sex space.

Or that was the case, up to - I think - 2017. At which point men demanded access to the women's pond, and were granted it. Women asked for reciprocal access to the men's pond - and were denied.

So now most men have 2 ponds, men who need a single sex space have 1 pond, men who say they identify as women have 3 ponds.

No women have more than 2 ponds, and women who need a single sex space have no ponds at all.

OP I no longer view TERF as a slur.

The 'TE' stands for 'trans exclusionary'. Well yes, transwomen should be excluded from biological female single sex spaces for a whole host of reasons outlined in this thread. Safety, dignity, privacy, religious and cultural reasons, trauma reasons, fairness reasons in sport. I stand by that.

Transmen (biologically female) are not being excluded from these spaces. Only sports if their artificial testosterone level disqualifies them, their qualification times/ability is hopelessly adrift of the minimum requirement in the biological male or 'open' category, their instinct for self preservation prevents them from taking part in sports in the biological male category - particularly contact sports (I have no idea if the rules prevent this but you don't hear transmen screeching about it, probably because they're intelligent enough to know they'd get hurt).

Moving on, the 'RF' stands for 'radical feminist'. I don't think it's a radical position to take when the silent majority of the country agrees. I don't even know if it's particularly feminist, it just seems like common sense to me. Women and girls are physically weaker and at much greater risk of male violence. Most men and women understand that. People are afraid to speak out because it's been bizarrely framed as a bigoted view (TRAs are very fond of equating it to racial segregation and homophobia).

I also find asking “if genitals don't define gender, how does removing them affirm it?” really stumps them.

I don't call myself a TERF either, my username is where I sit. Transwoman excluding, transman including rad fem. My feminism is for all women, even the ones who don't want to be women and it isn't for any men.

I personally think men can pretend to be women if they want but they don’t get to force me to go along with it. Certain spaces should be sexist segregated for reasons of privacy and dignity and the other sex should not be allowed in no matter how they “identify”.

Male to female transsexuals quite often don’t have a penis. Interested in your views on people who have had surgery using women’s changing rooms? Would you mind?

Yeah absolutely asked this question and discussed it 1000s times. Answer always the same- TWAW. Most TW accept they aren’t bio women - surely on that basis there should be a third space across settings separated by bio sex (prisons, changing rooms, rape and DV shelters) and put them all in there.