Trans people; why is it our responsibility?

[XChrome]

Okay, so trans identifying folks say that they need access to women's spaces because they aren't safe in men's spaces. I get that, but it is a problem caused by men. Therefore the solution should be about men, not women. So why isn't the main focus on targeting these men, campaigning for harsher penalties for such hate crimes? Why instead are they expecting women to compensate them for male behavior, making ourselves feel less safe in the process?

I would love for a trans identifying person to answer that question.
Has anyone here ever asked a trans person this question and received an honest answer?

I'm not hardcore "terf" as I respect everyone's right to decide who and what they are. My problem with it is when it conflicts with other people's rights to safety and security. I would really like to them to tell us why the violent men who cause this problem are being let off the hook and women are the ones targeted with all this anti-terf hate.

No it's not.

It's still legal to be able to tell men they're men.
Why do you think that's illegal?

Trans women’s rights to exist in spaces minding their own business, not committing crimes and using a restroom.
these rights seem not to be universally held in this chat - maybe it’s a culture thing I’m from the UK and we would consider that discrimination and illegal here

It's not our responsibility to protect them by sacrificing ourselves. Female self sacrifice is just being taken as an given. To me, that particular sense of entitlement is male, so if you expect us to make that sacrifice while letting men off the hook, you're probably not a woman.

...most large spaces and companies are moving towards gender neutral toilets in addition or as a replacement to avoid all this.
Making people less safe as you can't see if someone has collapsed inside; which was the reason there were gaps at the top and bottom in the first place!

...please remember that if any person of any gender identity is a sex offender/violent criminal wanting to hurt victims they are very unlikely to care which toilet it they go to in order to commit horrible crimes.
Nonsense - most sex offenders and violent criminals are men, most victims are women - when you've solved that perhaps then there could be a discussion about changes to the toilet arrangements. Besides, ladies loos are needed as an escape from men altogether.

You can tell a man they are a man - might be weird but that’s not illegal. If you told trans women they were a man then that would be illegal in the UK under equality discrimination as it would be considered a hate crime to insult someone like that just like a racist or sexist comment as it would be a transphobic comment

PrincessCordelia · Today 19:03
gardenmusic · Today 19:01
Since when is a phobia of any sort unacceptable or anyone else's business?
Now come into my space as a man, and that is my business.
Depending on where you live I would imagine that they are supported by the law and that you might be the one acting in an unlawful way if you discriminated against them.

I would not discriminate against any woman.
I would not discriminate against any man dressed as a woman and going about his business.
I would happily sell him a frock and some slap, serve him in a pub, offer him a job, if he were the right candidate, have a drink with him - but I absolutely will complain if he tries to infiltrate women only spaces, because he is a man.
The law is an ass.

I am not taking away any trans persons rights.

I am quite happy to share spaces with trans men as they are biologically female.

Trans women do not have the right to invade my single sex space without my consent as they are biologically male.

Trans people have exactly the same rights as every other human based on biology. The social construct of gender does not confer additional rights and does not overwrite the rights of others.

This is absolutely correct, and I would add that although they would not admit it, the vast majority of people believe that the purpose of having women in the world at all is to be some sort of support to men.

no thank you

Might be different where you are from I can only speak from the UK POV. You can’t remove someone from a space where they are doing nothing wrong due to being trans under current law. If a business did it it would be reputational suicide as well as an unlimited punitive fine from the courts.

Transwomen have the right to be in male spaces, not women's. Stonewall have successfully managed to put about the lie that as soon as a man declares himself to be a woman then it's illegal to stop him using women's single sex spaces but that is not true. The legal comparator is another man, not a woman.

I also doubt that you are from the UK if you use the term restroom as that just isn't a word in use here.

Incorrect.
Are you saying a doctor would be arrested for a hate crime if they were to tell a transwoman they couldn't have a cervical smear because they were male?

Biology and reality are not hate crimes.

BTW most people here are from the UK too.

It is not illegal to state biological truth.

I like how you conveniently forgot to say "transwomens rights to exist in WOMEN'S spaces". Makes it a bit more palatable to say it the way YOU said it, doesn't it?
I wonder why?

This brought up a memory. I lived in Italy in the 70s, and it was routine that in sites of interest which had bathrooms, they would lock the women's and leave the men's open. They also had urinals for men on the streets, but no facilities for women.
These are the kind of things which those who now identify as transwomen never had to deal with when they were growing up. How can they possibly understand what it's really like to be female?

Oh dear you know nothing about the Uk law.
You seem to think Uk law is: Be Kind 😂

Trans women are men and it's not 'illegal' to say so.
It upsets some people but it's not illegal.

It's also not 'illegal' to be sexist or in most cases even racist. You can't actively discriminate, but you can still mostly say what you like (inEngland at least). Which is a good thing. So then we know who the tossers are.

Unfortunately many of them don't just not understand but also don't care.

Great point.

And this is also incorrect BTW.

You CAN remove trans women from single sex spaces when there is a legitimate reason for doing so.

You are wrong every time you post 😂😂

No one wants to remove anyone from anywhere for being trans.
We want to remove men from women's spaces.

Which the law allows businesses to do and in some sitautions mandates it.

General point for anyone reading: please ignore everythig on the UK law @PrincessCordelia says.

I know there is violence towards them, but it tends to be street violence and dating violence, not in public restrooms. Bashers aren't hanging out in the pisser waiting for a trans to walk in.

Yeah, I think that's part of it. The problem of male violence is too daunting. So we're the sacrificial lambs.

Exactly.

My male horse has been gelded. He’s not become a mare

Haha of course I’m not oblivious to physical biology. I am not denying that trans women don’t need smear tests! I don’t believe gender and sex are the same thing at all. Sex is biological fact and gender is something you align with which could be the same as your sex or not. I would be interested to know if people here believe that sex and gender are the same thing?

I am chatting in this thread as it’s interesting and I’ve never heard of some of these opinions before. OP invited discussion and while I do feel sex and gender are different and gender is how you feel and live and this seems not to be the same as everyone here

I have always believed third spaces is the answer, but that's not going to be enough for them if they are seeking validation of being considered women.