Trans people; why is it our responsibility?

[XChrome]

Okay, so trans identifying folks say that they need access to women's spaces because they aren't safe in men's spaces. I get that, but it is a problem caused by men. Therefore the solution should be about men, not women. So why isn't the main focus on targeting these men, campaigning for harsher penalties for such hate crimes? Why instead are they expecting women to compensate them for male behavior, making ourselves feel less safe in the process?

I would love for a trans identifying person to answer that question.
Has anyone here ever asked a trans person this question and received an honest answer?

I'm not hardcore "terf" as I respect everyone's right to decide who and what they are. My problem with it is when it conflicts with other people's rights to safety and security. I would really like to them to tell us why the violent men who cause this problem are being let off the hook and women are the ones targeted with all this anti-terf hate.

Around 90% of trans women retain their penis.

Most male trans people do indeed keep their fully working penis. It's approx 85-90% if I remember correctly. That also doesn't matter as a, we can't tell if they still have it and b, they are still male even without one.

If you’re in a swing seat your vote will make a difference. Use it to put pressure on Labour to legally protect biological women’s rights.

www.thetimes.com/article/06e1ee5e-1a7e-4f7a-a094-9fbf634d09c8?shareToken=92e7935b8c1c2a423b819c1453bdb3ba

Actually statistically it’s extremely rare that men who claim to be transgender have their penis removed- over 98% I understand retain their penis.

in any event, it’s largely irrelevant- they remain men - people cannot change sex.

I didn’t ask what percentage have a penis. I asked if people would be ok with a post op male to female transsexual using female facilities. Genuinely interested in the answer to that.

OP - because feeling unsafe in the men’s loos is just a red herring. (How often do you hear about transphobic attacks in the men’s loos?)

It’s because maintaining the pretence that these men are women is the main driver of this. The goal isn’t to “pee in peace”. It’s to pretend that the trans woman is a “real woman”.

And for at least some men, there’s a self-acknowledged sexual thrill from listening to women pee/being in the women’s loos/pushing women’s and girls’ privacy boundaries.

It’s up to you, of course, to decide whether you think there is any overlap between the men who get aroused listening to women peeing (or being around little girls in the loos), and the men who identify as women. Maybe there is, maybe there isn’t. I wouldn’t like to say.

Surely if you were serious you'd want both things to happen?

You know that male spaces will never be safe enough. That's why we as women resist shared sex spaces.

I didn’t ask what percentage have a penis. I asked if people would be ok with a post op male to female transsexual using female facilities

No. Female facilities are for women. Transwomen aren't women, whatever body parts they may have had removed, or indeed added. Besides, are you expecting post-op transwomen to drop their pants at the door to prove it? If not, then what's the point of making the distinction, especially since 90% do not have the op. No men in women's facilities full stop.

But you did state this,

" Male to female transsexuals quite often don’t have a penis. Interested in your views on people who have had surgery using women’s changing rooms? Would you mind? "

What percentage do you equate to as " quite often " because the statistics show that actually quite often, infact more often than not that male to female transpeople do retain their penis.

Did you not research this or was it deliberate misinformation?

And the answer will always be, yes I mind sharing a female dedicated toileting area with a male to female transperson with or without their penis attached.

sockarefootwear · Today 10:06

1. Everyone has the right to choose how they identify and what words people can use to describe them. Except biological females, who are cis-women and if they don't like being called that they are bigots. Any attempt to question anyone's identity, or motives for claiming a particular identity, is bigotry. This is the case even if the individual is a child or vulnerable adult and the person questioning wishes to safeguard and support them.

Excellent summary. So tired and pissed off with all of it. Obvious safeguarding risks just trampled over because men's rights (as usual) trump anyone else's. And anyone working with autistic girls knows they've been badly served by the fall-out.

Yes, I would mind sharing with a man without a penis, because he is still a man.
I wonder if I would know, though.
If he looks male, I would pick up on it. I might have shared a space and not known.

No I wouldn't. The person would still be male, with all that implies about size, socialisation and level of aggression, and the demonstrated intent of invading the space of non-consenting females tells me all I need to know about them. Chopping off a toe or a penis or a thumb or any other body part doesn't change that.

Okay I'll play.
The answer is NO.

Why? Still a bloke.

And for the same reason that I wouldn't want an impotent man (can't use his penis), a gay man (wouldn't use his penis), a male penile cancer victim (has no penis) or the fucking Pope (not allowed to use his penis) in those spaces.

They are all still MEN.
Female facilities are for females, not men with penis amputations.

I wouldn't be okay with it,no men means no men.

Because women are expected to make room and be nurturing, self-sacrificing, and accommodating to anyone who needs it, and if they don't do this with a smile on their face, they're horrible bitches.

@XChrome

Okay, so trans identifying folks say that they need access to women's spaces because they aren't safe in men's spaces. I get that, but it is a problem caused by men. Therefore the solution should be about men, not women. So why isn't the main focus on targeting these men, campaigning for harsher penalties for such hate crimes? Why instead are they expecting women to compensate them for male behavior, making ourselves feel less safe in the process?

Possibly because its made up BS that is put forward so that Transwomen can have their own way.
Has anybody ever seen any stats the prove that trans people are at risk in male toilets?
The trans lobby seems to have stopped putting forward stats as they are so easy to disprove, so it seems like they are back to they "Feelz" that they are unsafe, so they must encroach on women's spaces.

To be honest, if I were a man who looked like a man, and I were wearing a dress and a bit of slap, I would feel unsafe anywhere except, perhaps, on stage.
Doesn't mean he can use the ladies, though.

Yes and the same argument about “feeling unsafe” and not checking people’s genitals applies the other way round too.

If I’m washing my hands next to a post-op trans woman how do I know if they have had their penis removed or not? I - and my ten year old daughter, what’s more to the point - still feel unsafe whether or not the person has technically had an op to remove the penis or not. But somehow if women and girls feel unsafe that’s not considered, despite the fact that my daughter is tiny, and much more vulnerable than an adult transwoman.

Sarah Jane Baker chopped his own balls off (and allegedly ate them) while in prison. He's still a very dangerous, violent male and no woman would be safe around him.

I agree OP.

I don't really care about trans people.

I don't wish them any harm and don't want them discriminated against, but there are loads of other groups I'd prefer to give my limited attention to: people with disabilities, the elderly, young carers, young women for examples.

No one demands everyone has to care about those groups. they are mostly ignored and expectde to lobby for their own needs. I choose to take an interest in those especifc ones because they impact me in some way directly/ indirectly.

Yet we're all supposed to care about trans people.

I don't.

I don't mind them lobbying or raising funds for their own needs. 3rd spaces, shelters, charitable financial support for those who want to chop their balls off from those who care about that.

But I don't. And I don't see why women as a group should.

We should be able to advocate for ourseleves without having to solve or even care about their issues.

This conversation seems a bit out of hand. I fear transphobic propaganda is the reason that some women here seem afraid of Trans women 🤔
most large spaces and companies are moving towards gender neutral toilets in addition or as a replacement to avoid all this.
please remember that if any person of any gender identity is a sex offender/violent criminal wanting to hurt victims they are very unlikely to care which toilet it they go to in order to commit horrible crimes. The feelings here should be about violence and sex offences not gender identity and symbols on a toilet door 🚻

The feelings here should be about violence and sex offences not gender identity and symbols on a toilet door 🚻

Absolutely. 99% of sex offences are committed by males. 80-90% of violence is committed by males. It doesn't matter what a man's 'gender identity' is, what matters is his sex.

please remember that if any person of any gender identity is a sex offender/violent criminal wanting to hurt victims they are very unlikely to care which toilet it they go to in order to commit horrible crimes.

So you are happy with mixed sex toilets then?
Good for you.

I'm not. I want single sex toilets.
So lets' have both. You can share with the men, I'll use the women only ones.

I'm intersted in women's rights and don't care where men go to the loo as long as it's not the women's.

'some women here seem afraid of Trans women'
I am not afraid, I am pissed off at their entitlement. They should not be in women's spaces.
I fully understand that women can be afraid of finding a man in their changing room or toilet. I don't care if said man is as weak as a kitten, he has no right to make women feel uncomfortable.