Trans people; why is it our responsibility?

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Okay, so trans identifying folks say that they need access to women's spaces because they aren't safe in men's spaces. I get that, but it is a problem caused by men. Therefore the solution should be about men, not women. So why isn't the main focus on targeting these men, campaigning for harsher penalties for such hate crimes? Why instead are they expecting women to compensate them for male behavior, making ourselves feel less safe in the process?

I would love for a trans identifying person to answer that question.
Has anyone here ever asked a trans person this question and received an honest answer?

I'm not hardcore "terf" as I respect everyone's right to decide who and what they are. My problem with it is when it conflicts with other people's rights to safety and security. I would really like to them to tell us why the violent men who cause this problem are being let off the hook and women are the ones targeted with all this anti-terf hate.

The years of being polite and #bekind have done women such dissservice. We take one step forward and two steps back with equality. I remember when I worked in a company ten years ago that had just embraced Stonewall training and was a little perplexed but went along with it. We hadn’t got to the pronoun stage then.

Now I’ve lost patience. I’ve supported lesbian friends when they wanted to hold. Lesbian event without men in dresses there. Who want to date other women and not have to be explain why they won’t date transwomen time and time again. I won’t do the pronoun stuff. I won’t pretend. I don’t have a gender. There are two sexes. The end.

India Willoughby claims to have one, he's offered to show it on tv. Not quite sure what he thinks a cervix is but he seems very proud of it.

I'm still waiting for evidence that the men's toilets are unsafe places for non-conforming males.

Yes, there are transwomen who use the gents without issue as they have told us. I think we're supposed to ignore them though

Don't give them ideas FFS 🤣

There was a bit of a Twitter thing a few weeks ago where a transwomen used a male toilet and was beaten up, teeth smashed and jaw broken. However.

One outlet claimed to have spoken to the victim afterwards (next day) and there were no other reliable sources. So - not really clear. The timing was "convenient".

Interestingly there was no outpouring of "men need to #BeKind" and no outpouring of "men need to budge up and be more welcoming". In fact there was a deafening silence on that score but a lot more "see! We need to use the ladies because they don't [can't] do that to us!"

I'll see if I can dig out the tweet when I'm on my laotop

Sorry I’m not sure I understand the question if im honest

We can care about the risk to genuine Transwomen but women do not have to risk making ourselves more unsafe by allowing our natural predator into our safe spaces and the safe spaces of our daughters in order to protect transwomen.
That's essentially what's being asked of us.

Lammy also called women 'rights-hording dinosaurs' - which was the source of the whole dinosaur thing.

Ultimately the root of this is fear of male violence right? so anyone at risk of this deserves the rest of us to care about it and therefore it is our responsibility?
i dont have any issue with trans women using public female toilets,

So we should let everyone at risk of male violence into women's loos (and prisons, and hospital wards, and refuges ...) should we?

That would be gay men, disabled men, men from minority ethnic groups, men between 18 and 34, drunk men, men involved in gangs, men who use drugs, men who deal drugs, and men.

Let them all in, they're all at more risk from men than we are.

But men cannot become women no matter how much they want to. It's impossible. Thats why they are called trans women and just women. Some people will call a TW 'she' as a courtesy. Its like when gay men refer to each other in the feminine (eg 'hark at her' comments).
My husband worked with a trans woman who was good to work with, professional and extremely competent. No one in the office actually saw the trans woman as an actual proper woman though although people were accepting of the TW clothes, demeanour etc.

You said that it would be deception for a man to pretend to be trans in order to enter a women's toilet.

My question is what is the difference between a man pretending to be a woman (a transwoman) and a man pretending to be a man pretending to be a woman?

From my point of view, they are both men pretending to be women and should not be in women's toilets (or other sex-segregated places).

I'm interested in why you think the man pretending to be a transwoman is being deceptive and shouldn't be in women's spaces but the man pretending to be a woman isn't being deceptive and should be welcomed into women's spaces?

I can't see any logic in that and so am interested in why you think this?

My question is what is the difference between a man pretending to be a woman (a transwoman) and a man pretending to be a man pretending to be a woman?

This ^ beautifully exposes the nonsense.

And how would we tell the differenece between the men who genuinely think they're women or the men pretending to think their women?
(If we thought that was a meaningful distinction to allow some men into women's spaces whihc I don't.)

We can't, so we exclude all men. Which all decent men accept.

A man thinking he's a women doesn't make him safer to women than other men. In fact it makes him more dangerous. They are the ones we should especially be exluding from women's spaces if we're honest.

But it doesn't really need saying because we just want to exlcude all men.

Ha - I've never seen it put quite like that before! Excellent point.

Caring about it and bearing the responsibility of it by being forced into taking risks are completely different things.
Everybody else seemed to understand that's what I was saying, so I tend to doubt it was the wording that confused you.

Shouldn't we care about other women, and shouldn't protecting 51% of the population be considered more important than protecting a tiny fraction?

Thanks.
Naturally, he will need a cervix to protect his womb from bacteria. Nothing strange about that. ;-)

I don't disagree. I have no real opinion on whether gender and sex are one and the same or different, nor do I care. That's part of what I mean by not being hardcore. I do think people have the right to expect others show a modicum of consideration for their feelings, so that whatever they call themselves, people are good enough not to correct them. I have talked to some terfs who insist on challenging them on their pronouns.

Do you think women have the right to expect others show a modicum of consideration for their feelings, so that whatever identity they have adopted, people are good enough not to remove or redefine the words that are and always have been used to describe them, or to erode their dignity and remove their privacy?

Is that about being personally offended because a biological male wants to be called a she? I don't expect people to change how they think of and refer to themselves for my sake. I am bothered if they demand I refer to myself as "cis" and that I accept their definition of what a woman is, yes. I hope that answers your question. I'm not 100% sure what you're asking, or even if it is me you were asking this of. You referred to a quote of mine, otherwise I would not have known.

i agree, i would love for the responsibility of protection of women to be taken up equally by everyone! but it isnt...
ultimately, women are still told how to "protect themselves" against male violence, women are still told how to dress and behave to "prevent" male violence.
I find all of the above ridiculous, outrageous and offensive

However, and this is my point, i dont find it MORE outrageous that trans women's safety is also being foisted on women, seeing as everything else is also "up to us to sort out"

What i really think we should all be angry about and fighting for is more responsibility from the other 49% of the global population who push these issues, accommodations and solutions onto us! That's not coming from the trans community, that's a result of patriarchy. pure and simple.

i just think we should target our anger and efforts in the right direction, Im far more angry at male indifference and ignorance to women's lives than i am to any trans person's desire to live their life in peace

I completely agree that the solution lies with men.
I would like the trans community to focus more on solutions to male violence rather than forcing women to protect them from it at risk to ourselves. Is that unreasonable?

not unreasonable at all! I agree!

so if we're proportionate in our response, lets tackle this first right?? this is the bigger problem

I am offended at the word 'woman' which means adult human female, being appropriated by adult humans who are not female. Not just offended, but afraid of the way that appropriation has made it impossible to measure the sex-based discrimination that still exists in pay levels, employment opportunities, public representation, and many other areas, and of the way it complicates health care provision.

Because we live in a sexist society and the number one underlying principle of sexism is that men are always victims and women are always to blame. Vulnerable man is murdered by men in a men's toilet? Womens fault for not letting the vulnerable male into their space and forcing him to go in the man's toilet! This belief is so deeply ingrained in most people they don't even realise