Trans people; why is it our responsibility?

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Okay, so trans identifying folks say that they need access to women's spaces because they aren't safe in men's spaces. I get that, but it is a problem caused by men. Therefore the solution should be about men, not women. So why isn't the main focus on targeting these men, campaigning for harsher penalties for such hate crimes? Why instead are they expecting women to compensate them for male behavior, making ourselves feel less safe in the process?

I would love for a trans identifying person to answer that question.
Has anyone here ever asked a trans person this question and received an honest answer?

I'm not hardcore "terf" as I respect everyone's right to decide who and what they are. My problem with it is when it conflicts with other people's rights to safety and security. I would really like to them to tell us why the violent men who cause this problem are being let off the hook and women are the ones targeted with all this anti-terf hate.

Oh you sweet summer child.

Not all sexual abuse or paedophilia involves a penis.

I take it it has been proven not to work now - tbf I’m pretty sure the Louis Theroux doc on pedos was ten or so years ago

💯

I'm no expert on this stuff, but apparently, if still controversial, castration and chemical castration may well work to some degree:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3824348/

There is no robust data on effectiveness. However, reviews of the data that are available report that, over follow-up periods ranging from 1 to 35 years, recidivism rates of 2.5–7.5 percent were found after surgical castration compared to 60–84 percent in offenders left “untreated” (Heim and Hursch 1979; Weinberger et al. 2005).

...

Chemical castration via administration of CPA and MPA has been found effective in reducing recidivism in sexual offenders with paraphilias in some small-scale, controlled studies (e.g., Fedoroff et al. 1992; Maletzky, Tolan, and McFarland 2006; Meyer et al. 1992). However, other studies found no significant effect (e.g., Hucker, Langevin, and Bain 1988; Maletzky 1991).2 Several studies have shown high efficacy rates for GnRH agonists in dramatically reducing testosterone levels and self-reported deviant sexual desires and behaviours, including in individuals who did not respond to CPA or MPA. However, no randomised controlled trials have yet been published (Thibaut et al. 2010).

Thus, for both traditional agents and GnRH agonists, evidence for effectiveness is not robust. Moreover, chemical castration appears to be ineffective in antisocial or psychopathic sex offenders who do not suffer from paraphilia (Berlin 2009), and certain comorbidities may preclude effective intervention in individuals with paraphilia (Saleh and Guidry 2003).

Yep, SJB is a violent male who got life for attempted murder and kidnapping, amongst other things. Castrated himself in prison, and is on hormones.

There's also evidence some men are compelled to commit more sadistic crimes when castrated/unable to use a penis to rape. Because of course it's about power and sadism, not sex per se.

@PrincessCordelia I would be interested in your answer to this question?

These are very good points. I was not arguing for opening up single sex toilets to trans identifiers, just stating where my greatest concerns lie. For example, I'm particularly concerned about men having the opportunity to get at their wives in DV shelters by claiming to be trans.

I think anyone basing their opinions on anything at all on a ten year old Louis Theroux documentary is either clearly on a wind-up, or so credulous that they can safely be discounted.

I was going to post the same article. Thanks

I'm not hardcore "terf" as I respect everyone's right to decide who and what they are. My problem with it is when it conflicts with other people's rights to safety and security."

You've just defined TERF. You are one.

Chin up - be proud.

I was not arguing for opening up single sex toilets to trans identifiers, just stating where my greatest concerns lie. For example, I'm particularly concerned about men having the opportunity to get at their wives in DV shelters by claiming to be trans

It's all one though. Single sex spaces and provisions are either protected, or they're not. Toilets, DV shelters, hospital wards, rape counselling, prisons, sports etc etc can all be protected or all abandoned by 1 law. We don't need to prioritise.

I'm not ashamed. I just wasn't aware this is considered hardcore or extreme.

Again, good points. No disagreement. That's why I started the thread. I'm kind of a baby terf. I have discussed it with others on spinster, but not in great depth.

I'm glad that you wandered over from Spinster to FWR and started a discussion 👍 I actually get a lot out of hearing the views of other people, even the views I disagree with. I always learn something from all the great posters we get here on FWR.

You're quite right. I worded that badly. I was trying to be unambiguous but adding 'identify' lacks clarity. Thank you.

In terms of raw numbers there are more male sex offenders than trans women sex offenders in prison because the population size is so different.
Taking population size into account, you would expect trans women to offend at the same rate as male prisoners. They don't. The percentage of trans woman imprisoned for sexual offences is much higher than the percentage of males imprisoned for the same offences.

im late to this thread, but what a horribly worded question??
as a white women i am lower risk of being racially abused, but i still think its something i should care about?? That doesnt make it onerous on me to consider it "my responsibility"?
Ultimately the root of this is fear of male violence right? so anyone at risk of this deserves the rest of us to care about it and therefore it is our responsibility?
i dont have any issue with trans women using public female toilets, but i also understand that some people do and i understand that this is nuanced and there are different views on the solutions to it. I dont think its unreasonable that women should be asked to care about this though??
I would hope that men also care about it, but unfortunately trans men are always absent from these discussions....

Sorry, quick breakdown
Sir Kier is our soon to be PM
Stella Creasy is one of his most tra supporting MPs
David Lammy is also an MP who publicly opined on the possibility of "getting a cervix" at some point during transition. And they're going to be in charge soon.

If we were being asked to care then it might be different but that's not the truth is it?

I can care.
Oh dear that must be awful how sad for them I wish them well.
There you go. Caring.

I do care actually. I care that there are people struggling with gender dysphoria because it's genuinely an awful thing to have to deal with. I feel sorry for them.

But it is being demanded of us (as always) that we prioritise and centre men even when we are losing our spaces and services as a result of that and are being threatened and abused for refusing to play pretend when doing so is harming us.

Where is all the outrage about men's role here? Where all the abuse and threats directed at men for not prioritising transmen? Where are all the campaigns for men to be inclusive and budge up? Where's all that outrage? I'm listening and it's crickets here.

As usual men just stroll on by and get on with their lives, business as usual just expecting we'll sort it out, roll over, budge up, soothe feelings, put ourselves last and when they look up and glance over at it it's all taken care of and they haven't had to do anything or give a shit. And their lives have not had to change in any way that they don't want or like.

I am tired of this. It is not my role as a woman to chuck my own needs in the bin and prioritise ensuring men are happy and don't need to do anything.

And re transmen
Women.
Female socialisation.

They aren't out there making threats and demands and hurling insults - because they are women and suffer the same shit as the rest of us.

They aren't out there making men feel unsafe and demanding men prioritise and accommodate them regardless. They're not storming into their gp, demanding prostate exams.

They don't believe they must be centred and prioritised at all times because that shit is classic male entitlement and women with gender dysphoria are still women, raised as women, socialised as women with the don't make a fuss be kind bullshit.

What the fuck is a trans woman going to do with a cervix? Bronze it and display it on the mantle piece?

Everyone is at risk of male violence though / male violence dominates the world.

For many many reasons women & girls are susceptible to MV in a very different way to men. We are (on average) much smaller, less strong, socialised differently, vulnerable to pregnancy & all that stems from that etc. I'm sure none of this can come as a shock to you?

You seem to be saying it's on women should solve MV - how? Women are not human shields for men.

You seem to be saying the very basic provisions women have to have some space in public life away from men (and therefore potentially MV) should be open to men.

This would do zero to address male violence & make the entire world more difficult & dangerous for women & girls.

TW are men. They are men who are insisting on transgressing women's boundaries because of alleged special feelings they have.

this makes them particularly dangerous type of men, especially when woman like you decide you're ok with it & therefore you think you can open women's spaces (for all women) to these men.

Why on earth do believe these men when they say they are women? Are you believing they are women because "feelings" and not men because of their actual bodies?

No one has ever changed sex. Not once.

In the few spaces we divide by SEX, all men need to be accommodated in the male spaces. Any proposal to let men into women's spaces eradicates women spaces in society- they become mixed sex spaces. Is that what you want?

I would hope that men also care about it, but unfortunately trans men are always absent from these discussions....

That's because they are women. It revolves around the men in women's spaces because women are more at risk of sexual assault and sexual harassment from men than vice versa. Hope that helps.