To those who consider prostitution rape...

[Ahsoka2001]

I recently found some old MN threads where posters debated whether a man who has sex with a prostitute commits rape. Those in favour argued that the woman's consent is not freely given - it is conditional on the basis money is exchanged and consent cannot be bought -

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3012135-Is-prostitution-rape

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/2791778-does-having-sex-with-a-prostitute-constitute-rape

To those who agree with this position, I'm wondering where exactly do we draw the line? If all prostitution is rape, then -

a) What about female pornstars? They only have sex on camera on the condition that they are paid for the shoot. Does this mean every male pornstar in history is a rapist because the woman's consent was bought and not freely given?

b) What about mainstream/narrative cinema actresses? If a female Hollywood star only consents to a sex scene on the condition of receiving a paycheck for the role, does that mean they're being sexually assaulted when they perform a scene in which they're kissed/touched sexually? Does this mean male Hollywood actors who partake in these scenes are sexual assaulters?

...Surely not! But again, if all prostitution automatically equals rape, then how and where do we draw the line?

Ah, okay, I understand.

Yet more worthless straw. I never once said, nor implied, that men should be got rid of or that they aren't an asset in other ways. FWIW, a lot of women are also a liability in some ways, just not ways that cause injury, death and destruction.

You're debating dishonestly because you have no valid argument and you can't keep your ego in check. You're wrong with your Happy Hooker 1970s nonsense, but you just can't admit it, so you get all peevish.

Where does class come into it? You're not making sense, and I suspect it is habitual. Nor do I care a fig about your dear old mother's glory days of bra burning or whatever. I'm certainly not a victim, because I don't put up with assholes or do things that are harmful to my body or psyche, but that's because I have the economic power to refuse. Not everyone is so fortunate, which is a tragedy. According to you, that's "choice." Fuck a bunch of that.

Dismissed.

That's because you're the one constructing them and you can't provide evidence that anyone else is.

Another of your scarecrows. That idea has not been expressed.
They don't have the same level or the same type of security concerns as women. That's inarguable, but as you are given to arguing the inarguable, albeit badly, you probably have some more straw to hand out.

Yeah, that's supported by the research on the subject. Women in the sex trade are more likely to have endured sexual abuse and domestic violence.

Exactly. I don't know wtf he was on about with the "class analysis" thing. Rape happens to women of all classes.

I think he meant in terms of you think all women are one class. And all men are one class. It makes sort of sense when one is talking about Dworkin''s theory of how all women's fear of being raped, could benefit men as a class even if they aren't rapists. Although "class analysis" isn't the right word, I have seen it used in that context in a pejorative sense before. But he then extrapolated the idea of "class analysis" to straw man a "you can't say all men are rapists" kind of thing.

He isn't really arguing with what you said at all. He is arguing with an imaginary feminist position he made up.

Ah, I see. Thank you.
You're right. He was arguing with a Dworkin clone, not me. He says he's fucked off now, but I'm sure he's lurking, reading what we say about him.

I have encountered many guys like that in my time. They always get snippy when they can't back up their pompous, ignorant pronouncements about the experience of being a woman. They they run away when you call them on their bullshit.
I sort of prefer the ones who devolve into hurling misogynistic slurs, because at least they are being upfront with their hatred instead of being passive aggressive and manipulative.

@XChrome ,

What a polemic (the dictionary is ->)!

‘He was arguing with a Dworkin clone, not me. He says he's fucked off now, but I'm sure he's lurking, reading what we say about him’

Interesting admission the ‘what we say about him’, rather than how ‘we’ (the royal ‘we’?) deal with his arguments, further backed up by ‘I have encountered many guys like that in my time’.

I have been using this site for many years. Unless you are a (cowardly) name changer, you are new to it. Possibly you should read up on the site guidelines re personal attacks if you want to enjoy a long and happy stay here.

There is a very simple way to demonstrate the difference between a cleaner and a prostituted woman. A man is far more likely to employ his daughter to clean his toilets than he is to give her twenty quid for a blow job.

Dworking clone, really? I would like to think that a) I think for myself a and b) had contributed some knowledge to the debate. It is rude and dismissive and sadly common in feminist circles

@Dumbo12 I don't think she meant you were a Dworkin clone. I think she meant that the straw woman the other poster was arguing with was a Dworkin clone (a stereotyped set of ideas he was determined to rebut which had only a passing resemblance to what you or anyone else was saying). Hence the rather odd deviation into why it would be wrong to get rid of all men. (So that's us told, tell the ladies to cancel next Tuesday's manocide. Back to the drawing board.)

@biscuitandcake
Ah I see, thank you, I must admit I was somewhat surprised by the description! I think it gets quite difficult to read tone, especially when people are arriving to tell the women how wrong they are, for not understanding how women should react to commercial sex!

Now you've devolved to threats to report me?
😄
I haven't said anything about you as a person. I have addressed your arguments, which, IMO, sucked. It is not a personal attack. If you can't handle the criticism, nobody's forcing you to continue the conversation. You can just ignore me.
Saying I have encountered guys like you refers to encountering guys with similar arguments. What you have said is nothing new, you know, nor is it unique.
Rat me out for doing nothing wrong if it will serve as a salve for a wounded ego.

I was not referring to you or anyone else here.
I was talking to a person who seemed to be arguing with an imaginary Dworkin clone rather than arguing with me.

This is true. There is also plenty more other women would like to say but do not because they do not trust "anonymous" forums will allow them to remain anonymous. Doxing is a thing.

I was deeply offended by being taken for a Dworkin clone. I thought it was obvious that I'm actually a Valerie Solanas clone. ;-)

All sex is transactional, therefore on these crazy definitions you could call all sex rape.

Please fo explain that further

People only have sex for a reason?

What's the reason you have sex, assuming you have sex?

I have sex because I enjoy it, after nearly 30 years of dating women I’d say their motivations are more complicated.

Oh well OK then.

Do you not think women dictate if/when a couple have sex in most if not all relationships?

Oh boy, we’ve got a live one

most men who think that women aren’t truly human generally at least have the sense not to say it out loud these days