To those who consider prostitution rape...

[Ahsoka2001]

I recently found some old MN threads where posters debated whether a man who has sex with a prostitute commits rape. Those in favour argued that the woman's consent is not freely given - it is conditional on the basis money is exchanged and consent cannot be bought -

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3012135-Is-prostitution-rape

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/2791778-does-having-sex-with-a-prostitute-constitute-rape

To those who agree with this position, I'm wondering where exactly do we draw the line? If all prostitution is rape, then -

a) What about female pornstars? They only have sex on camera on the condition that they are paid for the shoot. Does this mean every male pornstar in history is a rapist because the woman's consent was bought and not freely given?

b) What about mainstream/narrative cinema actresses? If a female Hollywood star only consents to a sex scene on the condition of receiving a paycheck for the role, does that mean they're being sexually assaulted when they perform a scene in which they're kissed/touched sexually? Does this mean male Hollywood actors who partake in these scenes are sexual assaulters?

...Surely not! But again, if all prostitution automatically equals rape, then how and where do we draw the line?

What's the rationale behind the idea that consent cannot be bought?

It clearly is bought for many other things, so I don't understand why that would be so.

Is sex like other things?
What other jobs require you to take part of someone else inside you, to risk catching an STD or falling pregnant?
Is the Hollywood actress able to refuse to consent, and tell them to use a body double? Or is she coerced to do something that makes her uncomfortable?

Why do you need a line to be drawn?

Also, rather ironic that you chose two other industries that arse rife with abuse ,coercion and yes, rape.

I don't.

These are just 2 questions that came to mind as I was reading the threads and rather than resurrect a zombie thread I thought I'd make a new one.

In the case of mainstream actresses perhaps consider the power balance and think about the Harvey Weinstein type of coercion?

Did you see this which is current - happening now

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5093310-researchers-investigating-prostitution-worse-than-old-school-pimps

Shouldn't it be up to the adult sexworkers themselves? I personally don't think non sexworkers should be deciding consent on their behalf?

Who has the right to speak for these women?

That is one thing worrying me these days is people who think it is a modern and acceptable thing to think they have the right to speak for others, thinking things like 'you are doing feminism wrong because you are not doing it the way I say' is no different to they way people acted in the past

People should be free to act in ways they choose without being told they are doing it 'wrong'

I think it's a bit infantilising to call it rape on behalf of people who would disagree. I think it's this high handed approach that puts people off feminism and gets some people accused of prejudice. Just assuming that "these people" can't possibly understand the issues and the consequences.

It's all an exercise in futility anyway.

I'm not a proponent of exactly the view you describe, but I feel like I have to say WTF when you start with rape and then immediately ask What about female pornstars? What about mainstream/narrative cinema actresses?

You certainly can find porn, and you probably have, that's people having consensual sex and sharing the images/sounds with the world. And you can also find porn where the sex is consensual but not every participant agreed to have it made public, which is likely illegal in many jurisdictions, but is nit classified as "rape".

But when it comes to commercial "cinema", including porn ... the people involved aren't having sex. It's simulated. If there's something out of the ordinary going on where someone is actually forced or coerced to perform the sex act they're simulating - yes, of fucking course it's rape! How is this a question?

I don't know the law in all of the countries of the UK very well, but in the USA there have been successful rape cases where someone decides to take advantage of a sex scene to actually try to "have sex". So yes, again: that's rape.

As far as actors simulating the run-up to sex, or acts that could be considered sexual assault in another context, why would this be a crime any more than an actor simulating being shot or strangled? Are you even asking those questions?

I don't like the ferm "pornstar". It glamorizes what is a pretty ugly and brutalising business. But yes, I think much commercially-made porn is footage of rape, and that some of the participants are rapists, and others are themselves being raped or sexually assaulted.

Mainstream or Hollywood sex scenes do not involve real sex any more than a fight scene involves real violence. The actors are acting, and they are nowadays very closely supervised and supported to do so in a way they feel comfortable with. Historically, of course there were abuses and some actresses were raped or sexually assaulted.

I saw a Canadian documentary made about 20 years ago that followed the story of a sex positive liberal feminist who decided to volunteer as part of the Canadian censorship body - the ones who decide whether pornographic films will be allowed distribution.
She goes in all too-cool-for-school and down on censorship. Then you see her being worn under the grind of watching hours and hours of video footage of teenaged young women being as-close-to-raped-as-possible-to-still-be-granted-distribution-rights. Really horrendous, like a jerking motion of the head that the producer would argue was the model giving consent for the painful direction the sex then takes.
(Things are very different now that videos are all distributed via internet, but I doubt that's changed things for the better re. consent and consent-lite).

There was also that film made, maybe about ten years ago? One of those male auteur's vision of lesbianism films. Interviews with the actors who played the two main characters described what I would call coercion to perform violent sex acts (on each other). I can't remember if any criminal or civil case occurred against the director. I think it was in France.

a) What about female pornstars?
Rape
b) What about mainstream/narrative cinema actresses?
Rape
Does this mean male Hollywood actors who partake in these scenes are sexual assaulters?
Yes. As are the people who set up these situations.

I absolutely agree but a couple posters on the threads I linked were honestly arguing that it’s rape even if the sex worker doesn’t realise incredibly

Agreed

In 100% of cases?? Even if the female partaking in the porn doesn’t consider for one second that she’s been raped

I never said anything in my post about situations where Hollywood actresses are coerced/forced to perform a sexual scene. I was talking about when they consent but it’s under the implicit condition that they’re paid for it.

I know commercial cinema doesn’t involve real sex. That’s why I gave the examples of kissing and sexual touching - which do happen for real on mainstream film sets.

I do believe that sex is probably different to other things. I don't believe that "sex work is work" in the sense that modern branches of feminism believe, for example. Sex workers are victims of their circumstances, and sex work is one of the things people resort to in desperation.

However, I think this is a different question to one of rape, and of consent. There are plenty of things I would do for money that I wouldn't consider doing for free. I have done things many times during the course of my employment that I find actively uncomfortable. But I still consented to do those things in return for money.

There is plenty of evidence in the broad church of feminism that all sex with men is rape in one way or another because women are exploited under the patriarchy. I don't agree with that sentiment, but can see how including this concept to cover sex work is just an extension of this oppressed/ oppressor dynamic.

I absolutely agree but a couple posters on the threads I linked were honestly arguing that it’s rape even if the sex worker doesn’t realise incredibly

Lots of people have lots of things done to them that they don't realise are criminal. And those things don't even involve putting other people's body parts inside them for pay. The circumstances of the act are what make it rape, not how people feel about it.

Although of course that's not true - actually only the man's feelings matter - the test is if he could reasonably assume he has consent. Doesn't matter what the woman thinks at all.

Prostituted women can have all the sex they like, no judgement there. What makes it rape is that they don't want to have this sex, they're only doing it because they are being paid.

What makes it worse, is that these prostituted women don't even have basic health and safety implemented, even in countries where it's legalised.

Actresses are not 'partaking' in either porn or sex. They are getting paid to do it.
If they wouldn't do it without the money, is it consensual sex?

The question is, do they have a choice or do they need the money? Has being paid for sex been this normalised for women that you can't see the problem any more?
Why do people need to see the end product, what drives the market for it?

So we are doing the "happy hooker" thing again and ignoring the fact that women and children are trafficked into sex work.

I'm sure if they said "actually, no not today" that they would be totally free to do so.

But what gives people the right to decide on the sex workers behalf that they’re a rape victim? Assuming they’re an adult and fully capable of consenting (ie not under the influence of drugs or mentally ill etc) then they're capable of deciding that for themselves, surely?

Assuming they’re an adult and fully capable of consenting

So how many sex workers do you know to be in this situation where they are totally free to say no without any harm coming to them?