To those who consider prostitution rape...

[Ahsoka2001]

I recently found some old MN threads where posters debated whether a man who has sex with a prostitute commits rape. Those in favour argued that the woman's consent is not freely given - it is conditional on the basis money is exchanged and consent cannot be bought -

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3012135-Is-prostitution-rape

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/2791778-does-having-sex-with-a-prostitute-constitute-rape

To those who agree with this position, I'm wondering where exactly do we draw the line? If all prostitution is rape, then -

a) What about female pornstars? They only have sex on camera on the condition that they are paid for the shoot. Does this mean every male pornstar in history is a rapist because the woman's consent was bought and not freely given?

b) What about mainstream/narrative cinema actresses? If a female Hollywood star only consents to a sex scene on the condition of receiving a paycheck for the role, does that mean they're being sexually assaulted when they perform a scene in which they're kissed/touched sexually? Does this mean male Hollywood actors who partake in these scenes are sexual assaulters?

...Surely not! But again, if all prostitution automatically equals rape, then how and where do we draw the line?

Why are so many women in the sex industry either abuse survivors or trafficking victims?
Where are all the happy women who leave the industry with a great pension pot or stack of savings?

Don't ask feminists to support an industry thats built on sexual abuse.

I don’t accept or use the term “sex worker” or “pornstar”.
Prostitution is not a job. Porn does not need glamourising with the added word star.
I despair of the rise of “pornstar martinis”. It is all normalising a world which at it’s heart damages women both those within and without.
I read the recent AMA “cam girl” thread but couldn’t bring myself to comment. The OP had already denied any effect of what she does on women in general and there seemed little point in bashing my head against the wall.
As regards mainstream actresses I was recently reading an account by a well known actress (can’t remember who) talking about the pressure to be nude and participate in sex scenes. It sounded horrible. Almost always the female body much more on show than the male too of course.

But what gives people the right to decide on the sex workers behalf that they’re a rape victim? Assuming they’re an adult and fully capable of consenting (ie not under the influence of drugs or mentally ill etc) then they're capable of deciding that for themselves, surely?

The law...

There's loads of stuff that you are legally unable to consent to. This is one of them.

An acted sex scene in a film where there is no actual sex e.g. no penetration is not and cannot be rape. It is also not equivalent to porn.

I think both porn sex and prostituted sex have a high incidence of rape. There are a lot of women trafficked into it in both sectors and exploited.

I'm more concerned about the men who don't care and are happy to get their kick either watching women potentially being raped, or actually raping women themselves.

I'd suggest you watch "hot girls wanted" on Netflix.

Erm…what? Prostitution is legal in England and Wales, what do you mean?

There are circumstances that drive and motivate women towards sex work. Not ever once is the circumstance a healthy self esteem developed with largely healthy childhood relationships free of childhood trauma or no genetic mental health/personality disorder. The reality is that lots of the stuff that affects people’s development in their early years goes largely unnoticed as trauma so they don’t even understand it to be that themselves. There is a production company who interviews people who have ended up as addicts and often prostitutes on skid row and loads of them describe excellent early childhoods but they also go on to describe significant trauma which clearly they don’t recognise as trauma. Sex work involves trauma to get you there and trauma while you do it. Buying consent is not part of the conversation for me. It is more nuanced than that.

I'm always a bit suspicious of the "happy hooker" type posters and what their motivation is.

It is illegal to traffic women and pimp them out. Many prostitutes in this country are modern day slaves. The men that use them are raping them. The "happy hooker" narrative legitimises rape of those women. It only benefits rapists.

E.g.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-66404346.amp

The obvious issue to me, is that a huge number of sex workers are controlled and enslaved. They are not prostituting themselves through choice. Nor do they keep the money paid by men for sex with them. In every instance like this, prostitution is rape.

If a woman chooses to sell sex on her own terms, charging a fee she feels is a fair rate, if she is doing so to earn a living, not to fund a drug habit (in which case she'd be of unsound mind while making the decision) and if she keeps her earnings, or chooses to pay an amount to a protector who she employs, then I'd argue that isn't rape. Though it would be interesting to know how many of these women have no other choice economically, and are opting for sex work as a quick way to earn enough to feed their families without working impossibly long hours and paying the vast majority of their income in childcare.

I suspect if for one year every case of prostitution the world over was recorded as either sex worker in enslaved/manipulated/unwilling set up; drug addict or independent worker, the percentage of cases in the first two categories would be huge and the last category would be way less than 1%.

Erm…what? Prostitution is legal in England and Wales, what do you mean?

It is, but only if you don't actually think about it/apply any reasonable standards to it. It meets no labour laws (therefore explicitly can't be work), and consent must be freely given and the person must have the capacity to do so.

We don't allow people to purchase consent in other situations such as organ or blood donation.

I'd suggest the most similar are drugs trials or combat sports, which have significantly more safeguarding around them.

If prostitution could meet H&S regulations (it can't) and have similar levels of regulation and safeguarding, then I would concede that consent is freely given by a person with capacity. In the current setup, it's impossible, therefore consent cannot be freely given, and so it's rape.

If women were able to choose a different way to earn cash, would they still choose prostitution?
You can't say its a choice unless there is a choice. 'Earn something a bad way or earn nothing' is not a choice.

Are OF girls forced into it? Many celebrities who have already made millions set them up for extra money. Is this not just using what you've been given, like a singer's voice, or an athlete's legs?

Are the 'yacht girls' forced? Are Leonardo DiCaprio's girlfriend's forced? You're telling me that girls of this beauty are poor and have run out of all other options? They are willingly offering their bodies in exchange for a lot of money and status. Why is a sexual barter different than a time or mind barter? A consultant would rather be with their family, but they are offering their mind and time in exchange for money. Those arguing that its disgusting and they're unhappy, so it must be rape... how do you ever truly know if someone 'wants' to be with you? Maybe you've gained a few pounds, gotten unfit and ugly, and your partner is staying because of the kids, because you earn well, because they want you happy... but they hate it. You get their body, mind, and soul in exchange for money, security etc. (Wild extrapolation, I know)

I'm not making a case either way. I'm making some wild arguments, im just saying it's not clear-cut, and i respect both sides. There are so many caveats, and I definitely agree it swings more to the dodgy side. At what point does it go from desperation to opportunity? I mean, if I had no money and some hideous thing said they'd give me £50 for food in exchange for sex, yes, it's coercion, rape etc... but how many people would turn down sex with Boris Johnson for a million pounds? (Bad example)

In 100% of cases?? Even if the female partaking in the porn doesn’t consider for one second that she’s been raped
100%. Study Nordic Model Now.
Bear in mind the societal pressure on women and girls, the effects of previous abuse and trauma. Women and girls who present as 'volunteers' are already damaged. They need protection, not exploitation.

A consultant would rather be with their family, but they are offering their mind and time in exchange for money

Ah go on a consultant and a sex worker is a false equivalence. A consultant brings esteem, a sense of purpose, social status.

A sex work risks their health, ends up having sex with a lot of scum bags who are the type to pay for sex, are almost universally psychologically negatively impacted by the experience with none of the esteem building of medicine. Straw man.

So they would do this for no pay?

Do you believe they would partake for free?

Given a different job that paid roughly the same, would these women still be in porn?

What other job requires one to swap bodily fluids inside body cavities?

Health and safety would ban the whole lot.

Where do you draw the line?

If you look at famous film stars and millionaires, they are often in their 70's with a girlfriend who is in her 20's. It's obvious that those women don't fancy the guy - they want his money and privilege, and sleeping with him is the trade off.

There are thousands of women, up and down the land, who marry men who they are not in love with, but who they know will take care of them financially. Those couples ae also having sex.

What about women who stay with husbands they no longer love, because they don't want to downgrade their life style?

Its not up to anyone to label anyone else, unless there is a clear attack taking place.

Julie Bindel has written a lot about this topic. For example: https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-sex-worker-myth/

Most prostitutes are in the "sex for food" camp not the "millionaire offering them millions" camp.

The “happy hooker” is the predatory left wing version of the narrative where the predatory right wing version is immoral harlot.

I suspect if for one year every case of prostitution the world over was recorded as either sex worker in enslaved/manipulated/unwilling set up; drug addict or independent worker, the percentage of cases in the first two categories would be huge and the last category would be way less than 1%.

^absolutely

In some scenarios it would be rape, women trafficked into prostitution with no choice kn the matter. Those who need a heroin fix do it out of necessity. It's unlikely they actually want to, but the H fix trumps everything. Then there are the high class escorts with carefully screened wealthy clients who pay well. Money talks, as they say.....

Question for you OP, seeing as the man has no idea if the woman is freely giving consent or not, and he’s willing to ‘take the risk’, does that not make him a rapist anyway, based on his own actions/morals?

This is exactly it

I'd say in legal terms if the person had sex with a prostitute then refused to pay, that could be classed as rape. Also they may be doing sexual practices they would never ever do consensually with someone they liked or loved, only in exchange for money. So all sex work is so close to rape that there isn't really a line there to be drawn. It's basically allowing yourself to be raped in order to obtain cash. Not the same as any other job really?!

Before I started drawing any lines I'd start analysing systems that mean there are very few "men, up and down the land, who marry women who they are not in love with, but who they know will take care of them financially."

That's the problem with all these choicey-woicey , 'but they're adults' arguments. They focus on the individual and never look at the structures in which they operate

Probably worth adding. See also "why do you care how adults identify?"

Anyone who has sat next to the bed of a young woman who had taken a paracetamol od, in a and e, after she had been battered by her pimp and was scared of not being able to give him enough money, so had tried to die, would not bother to try and sanitise prostitution. Any one who has spoken to a mother who "paid" with sex, for her taxi, to attend court for her teenage son, would also not attempt to sanitiser this horrendous transactional relationship. That's before we get to the underage girls who are prostituted and the actions of their pimps and punters.