To those who consider prostitution rape...

[Ahsoka2001]

I recently found some old MN threads where posters debated whether a man who has sex with a prostitute commits rape. Those in favour argued that the woman's consent is not freely given - it is conditional on the basis money is exchanged and consent cannot be bought -

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3012135-Is-prostitution-rape

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/2791778-does-having-sex-with-a-prostitute-constitute-rape

To those who agree with this position, I'm wondering where exactly do we draw the line? If all prostitution is rape, then -

a) What about female pornstars? They only have sex on camera on the condition that they are paid for the shoot. Does this mean every male pornstar in history is a rapist because the woman's consent was bought and not freely given?

b) What about mainstream/narrative cinema actresses? If a female Hollywood star only consents to a sex scene on the condition of receiving a paycheck for the role, does that mean they're being sexually assaulted when they perform a scene in which they're kissed/touched sexually? Does this mean male Hollywood actors who partake in these scenes are sexual assaulters?

...Surely not! But again, if all prostitution automatically equals rape, then how and where do we draw the line?

The idea that men have no security concerns is risible. Anyone sensible who lives in an urban environment develops ‘street smarts’.
Yes. That's why noone said that. In fact iirc you started this by claiming no women you know fear rape.

Anyway, I agree with pp. It's not really relevant to a debate about whether prostitution is rape.

There is a whole field of scarecrows, and it is not me taking issue with them….

I haven't read the whole thread but one thing I wonder about the concept of sex work and consent is that consent with regards to sex SHOULD be considered and applied at all stages but how is that possible when it is something contractual. For example, what if the woman agreed beforehand but then really doesn't want to continue halfway through? She has agreed to it because she is being paid but she no longer wants to. She can't just stop can she? I think the idea of money for sex is incredibly problematic. There is a reason why you are unlikely to find women who have had positive, attached childhood experiences and every resource available to them involved in sex work.

Ultimately there will be times when women involved in sex work have to engage in sexual activity when they don't feel like it/don't want to. That is rape. I don't see how that can ever be reconciled.

Ummm this is a feminist board, of COURSE it’s going to center women’s perspectives and experiences I’m not sure what to tell you there. I’ve been posting on this board on and off for many years, I don’t seem to have any massive issues interacting or even voicing disagreements on occasion, and I am a man.

You may not hear too much criticism from your female friends as if they have you pegged as one of the good ones they may enjoy your friendship as a bit of a holiday from some of the toxicity some men possess. I recall once I was out with a few mates (fairly even mix of men/women), all this stuff got brought up in relation to women’s experiences. I brought up a few talking points I’d seen from on here, and made the comment I bet nearly every woman around this table has experienced some negative stuff that would utterly shock all the men sat around the table. This unlocked a whole cathartic conversation where pretty much every woman sat round that table had something to say, and every man sat around that table was horrified.

None of the men took any of this personally as this really was the first time many of them had been exposed to the gravity and relentlessness a lot of women experience day to day. One guy even vowed to stop his rape jokes as once he saw the wider context he felt extremely bad. Now I’m not saying this because I’m some sort of feminist or woman whisperer, my vector of entry into all this feminist thought came via a quite frankly cringe inducing series of conversations I had with a female friend whose career path was very male dominated (engineering). She was trying to voice her frustrations on many issues she found in her field on account of being a woman. I was very much convinced much like you that bad stuff women talk about was mostly outliers that our generation was pretty pro-women and most of the big battles had already been won. Once I went away to really research the subjects we locked antlers on I went down the rabbit hole in my own time and discovered how bloody wrong I was. I had to eat a fairly large slice of humble pie and apologise for hitting most of the points where I was talking down to her, minimising her experiences. Assuming I was right all the greatest hits really. She was in retrospect remarkably forgiving about it all, I know I’d frustrated the hell out of her.

Also on the topic of women being all happy in transactional sex related stuff. I have a pal I online game with and for a number of months she ran an OnlyFans, as she is pretty attractive (not that I signed up to it mind!). At the time she was doing it she couldn’t have been more sex positive and glowing about it. So I thought fine no problem. Anyway fast forward nearly a year and she was going through depression, and I’m the sort of friend who shows up when someone is going through it. It wasn’t the only thing that had hit her by any means, but she confided in how the men objectified her in that space and treated her as a disposable piece of meat had contributed to grinding down her mental health. She had since shut it down. So I think we should be a bit cautious just taking happy hooker stories at face value.

@Newbutoldfather do you believe that women are often coerced and/or trafficked, into prostitution? If so then do you consider that the people having sex with her are raping her?
Do you believe in the concept of "positive consent", and do you believe that these women actually want the body parts of random men in her body?
I have listened to the stories of many prostituted women and girls, over many years, they frequently talk about and display symptoms of complex post traumatic stress disorder, much as other rape victims do.

In OP's porn star example, the female porn stars would presumably also be 'rapists'*. They too are giving consent because they're getting paid.

*yes, I'm aware of the legal definition of rape so you could substitute the words sexual abusers.

I am not under any man's control. Nor am I in constant fear of being raped. But the understanding that it could happen, at any random time, stops me doing certain things (mind some of them are things my late DH would point out no sane man would do either - like walk along a dark towpath at night alone). I am uncomfortable with being in a train compartment with only men around me, esp if they are young and rowdy, for example. All women take note of their surroundings, who is about, what might be a threat, where might help be sought, without even thinking about it - even your female friends who you think do not think they do.
'Class analysis' applies to some things e.g. women who think TWAW and why are you worried about transwomen in public lavatories - often such women never have to use a public lavatory at night in a remote or lonely place because of their social class. The class factor does not apply to fear of rape, however, which is embedded in all of us from childhood.

@Grammarnut I agree with a lot of what you said but I think class (or at least income) can influence fear of rape. As a middle class woman who works from home and has a lot of choice and control over my life, I rarely have to worry about rape. I say rare because I avoid running in the evening (which I would like to do) because of fear of rape. However, women from very low income backgrounds who have less choice may be forced to use public transport/walk through unsafe areas/work in unsafe conditions/use dark stairwells to access their home etc Their daily fear of rape may be much higher than mine. I recognise these differences while also recognising that the fear of rape is present for all of us and the power men hold over us is systemic.

For example, what if the woman agreed beforehand but then really doesn't want to continue halfway through? She has agreed to it because she is being paid but she no longer wants to. She can't just stop can she?

Yes. Of course she can. This is why you can't buy consent.

And the whole idea of "contractual sex" 🤢🤮

Thank you for doing all of this . This especially:

This unlocked a whole cathartic conversation where pretty much every woman sat round that table had something to say, and every man sat around that table was horrified.

THIS is what a decent man does @Newbutoldfather, not try to minimise women and justify their ongoing abuse. Maybe you should try asking women you know about their experiences and listening to the reply.

This is timely

https://unherd.com/2024/06/the-fight-against-canadas-pimp-lobby/

So, where are the men marching for their right to buy access to the bodies of other human beings?

@Dervel ,

‘Ummm this is a feminist board, of COURSE it’s going to center women’s perspectives and experiences I’m not sure what to tell you there. I’ve been posting on this board on and off for many years, I don’t seem to have any massive issues interacting or even voicing disagreements on occasion, and I am a man’

Of course it is centred on women’s experiences, and so it should be. That is why I read it (and rarely post, to be honest)-and I don’t name change.

But there is no such thing as a single women’s perspective or even a single feminist perspective. I only post when I see comments completely out of kilter with my female friends’ viewpoints.

‘None of the men took any of this personally as this really was the first time many of them had been exposed to the gravity and relentlessness a lot of women experience day to day. One guy even vowed to stop his rape jokes as once he saw the wider context he felt extremely bad.’

EVEN vowed to stop his rape jokes?! WTF makes rape jokes in the first place. I wouldn’t be friends with anyone who did and my teenage boys get very large bollockings when they repeat dodgy misogynistic jokes that they have heard at school. Do you really think that is an even?!

‘I have a pal I online game with and for a number of months she ran an OnlyFans, as she is pretty attractive (not that I signed up to it mind!).’

You make out that ‘running’ OnlyFans is a logical corollary to being attractive. Sometimes I suspect some of your instincts aren’t quite as pro woman as you think.

‘So I think we should be a bit cautious just taking happy hooker stories at face value.’

I don’t take anything at face value and try to read a lot around it (including this board). I do try to look at different viewpoints and actual data (I google a lot of academic papers).

If you read my posts carefully, I don’t think that I have ever swallowed the ‘happy hooker’ trope. But I do believe that some women make the choice voluntarily (in as much as any choice to do menial work is truly voluntary). I am not sure whether those who are contented (for want of a better word) with what they are doing should be stopped for the greater good of society, or whether it should be carefully regulated. I am sceptical about prohibition of anything of this nature.

Those who say it is like drunk driving make a fair point. But I suspect it is more like drinking, banning it just drives it underground and makes it even more ugly and exploitative.

Which is why many of us support the Nordic Model. Criminalise the buyers, not the women selling it, offer real alternatives to sex work for women, and work to reduce the demand among sex buyers.

@Newbutoldfather I find your description of sex work as 'menial work' seriously offensive. Having to let a man violate your body because you need money is not menial, it's physically and emotionally traumatic.

I agree with you that Dervals link between 'being attractive' and doing only fans was problematic. I also felt uncomfortable that he felt the need to pass comment on her attractiveness. I find that men, almost universally, think they have a right to rate a woman's attractiveness and state their opinion as though it's objective fact as though we give a fuck what you think.

I meant to come back to this post. I've already commented on the tone deaf references to "girls"

So far as the money, I'm very sceptical at how lucrative prostitution supposedly is for the women and men actively involved as opposed to the women or men controlling them.

As for the whataboutery re women buying sex, I don't believe this happens in any significant numbers but for the avoidance of doubt, I certainly don't give female punters a free pass. They're scum too.

As for "the majority of punters are ordinary and lonely" - so what? It makes no difference to the inherent wrongness.

@HappierTimesAhead ,

I don’t think it is possible to find a form of words that someone won’t take offence at. My point is clear.

Some don’t find it traumatic and would prefer escorting for 8 hours a week than doing 3 minimum wage jobs and not getting to see their children much. You might not like their choice or feel that, in an ideal world, anyone would have to make that choice but, given that someone has that choice, who are you to say she shouldn’t have made it or was ‘coerced’ into it (despite her vehement denial)?

I don’t have friends who have ever or would ever make rape ‘jokes’. I find the whole idea disgusting, neither would I comment on the attractiveness of my female friends-they are my friends and I don’t care what they look like (or even notice, to be honest).

I think I have made my views clear, so before I am (further) accused of mansplaining or dominating this thread, I have nothing further useful to contribute, so I am out.

Well yes feminism is a broad church, but what are the essential core tenets? If you’ll forgive me you seem to brandish female choice as some sort of talisman, or totem. You are not wrong to do so however it’s a lot more nuanced than that. I’d recommend “A Vindication of the Rights of Women” by Mary Wollstonecraft. Where she argues that once women have achieved comparable access to education, political enfranchisement, and opportunities comparable to men we unlock a collectively better society for all of us (men included). Once men and women stand side by side to embrace the challenges and vicissitudes of life together as equal partners the sky is the limit.

So no to me it’s not simply about promoting female choice we have to understand the spectrum of issues and chains that still hold women back. Giving them “the choice” in a culture where those choices are still limited along narrow parameters, gleefully rubbing our hands together and announcing “job done” or “ it’s far too much trouble to take this any further” is in no way a satisfactory end goal for anyone.

Look I’ll take a win wherever I can get one be that in inches or by miles. My male friend with the rape jokes simply liked edgy off colour humor. What prompted the change was being quite frankly flabbergasted by the number of women sat round the table who disclosed rather nasty stories of assaults and how careful they needed to be abroad in the world. What prompted the change of heart was his empathy. I think that takes strength and character to see that and resolve to do better you are of course welcome to disagree.

I’m saddened to see you reach for pejoratives about my potential character with regards to my own attitudes towards women. If I was simply bothered about “beating you” in the argument I would take that as a sign you were on the ropes and were resorting to substantively weak and feeble ad hominem, or at the very least to diminish me in your own eyes so you could safely and securely escape back into your worldview without having to contend with the uncomfortable challenges what we are talking about here, and I do empathise these ARE difficult conversations to have, especially publicly. However we can go there if you are insistent. Women in the main don’t actually mind if you find them attractive. It doesn’t make you regressive in anyway. I have had precious little issues expressing romantic or sexual interest in women, the key is to do so in the right context. Read non-verbal cues, and be secure enough in your own masculinity to take a rejection without it having the power to demolish the fragile house of cards you may have allowed your ego to have built around yourself. If you must know the phrasing or
comment about my friend’s looks was built around conversations I had with her. She had a preference for highly competitive games, and had a tendency more often than not to use her actual picture as a profile pic. This of course got her a lot of attention, and she just figured one day, why not?

It’s also not so much that you have swallowed the happy hooker trope, but simply that “women have made the choice so let’s leave them with all the consequences”. Which is arguably worse. Also what is legitimately baffling me is why the laser focus on that dimension of the debate? Zero consideration for the men who use prostitutes, beyond that some of the data you have researched claims that some prostitutes say some of the men are ok? I mean surely you are conversant enough with the data that reveals how very dangerous this practice is for women. So they (users of prostitutes) are empirically not safe enough as a class to allow the practice as a whole surely? It really doesn’t need to be any more complex than that if we are just going to be strictly empirical about it. I saw you argue up thread how it’s always gonna happen, so why bother regulating it? Well murders are always gonna happen but we still have laws against it. Why should this be any different?

@IHaveNeverLivedintheCastle ,

‘I meant to come back to this post. I've already commented on the tone deaf references to "girls" ‘

Yes, apologies for this. I had just watched a program on it and they were referred to almost universally as ‘girls’, but I should have proof read more carefully. I don’t think of adults as girls and refer to them as women.

That was cross posted….and now I really am out!

Newbutoldfather I find your description of sex work as 'menial work' seriously offensive

I find your references to "menial work" seriously offensive. You played that losing card attempting and failing to equate being a cleaner with being a prostitute.

I'm not sure I understand? I didn't mention cleaners or attempt to define 'menial work'. I stated that I found it offensive to use as a way to describe sex work.

"I think prostitution is harmful"
"Why do you hate sex and men. Here's why you are WRONG to want to get rid of all men"

For the record. I don't think all men are rapists, or sexually coercive and selfish. I think that men who rape are rapists. I think that men who pay to have sex with women that don't want to have sex with them, are sexually coercive and selfish.
But you can't have it both way. Either "its just human nature" and "men would act like that anyway, you can't expect them not to". OR Not all men are like that and its vicious radical feminists trying to portray men as evil.

Old did the rhetorical trick that most unpleasant men like himself do - they start of by excusing extremely harmful male behaviour (possibly their own) by saying all men are like that, its just the way we are (chimps spring to mind). Then when this is criticised turn it round to "you can't say all men are bad". Once again. Pick A Lane.

Also what's the betting NewButOlds multiple "female friends" are in fact women he has to pay to be around him?

n.b this isn't a personal attack mumsnet because NewButOld has said this is no more embarrassing than paying someone to clean your house

I was referring to Newbutoldfather's attempt at a "gotcha". I employ a cleaner, which by some obscure process of thought of his invalidates my opinion on prostitution.