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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Stonewall admit they didn't understand.

172 replies

WarriorN · 22/04/2024 18:57

x.com/stonewalluk/status/1782463071866286105?s=46&t=A2fpFNgDRyXF2d6ye97wEA

And they're still reading it

www.stonewall.org.uk/cass-review

Stonewall admit they didn't understand.
OP posts:
Thread gallery
12
Tallisker · 23/04/2024 13:09

binaryfinery · 23/04/2024 07:48

If Stonewall were a research paper, they would not be of sufficient quality to have made it into the Cass Report.

😁

Love this 🤣

drspouse · 23/04/2024 13:30

Lawyers aren't noted for their understanding of the scientific method...

SinnerBoy · 23/04/2024 13:38

RethinkingLife · Today 12:40

I particularly enjoyed the final sentence. The Cochrane Handbook is online and free to access for people who want to see the defined criteria for grading evidence, what is included in the systematic review and meta-analysis, what is included in a narrative review or discussion etc.

The criteria are set out in lucid and extensive detail. Harvard, Caraballo's employer, might wish Caraballo to read it before enmeshing them in further reputational harm about the quality of some of their staff appointments.

Oh, that's very good; have you considered emailing that to Harvard?

AstonsDataThief · 23/04/2024 13:51

Harvard are standout captured in a land of the captured. I am sure they would find this not only transphobic but also an example of colonist white supremecy heteronormative ableist homophobic racist Eurocentric oppression.

AstonsDataThief · 23/04/2024 13:52

I am sure I displayed my privilege by missing out many other forms of oppression even suggesting they should read something involves.

RedToothBrush · 23/04/2024 15:10

Floisme · 23/04/2024 09:01

I thought the funniest part of that interview was Robin's final, triumphal slide, stating that 'The Cass Review report does not conclude that puberty supressing hormones are an unsafe treatment.'

Yes we know - the point is that it finds the evidence in their favour is remarkably weak.

I thought Andrew Doyle let that go a bit too easily although to be fair to them both, RMW seems to be the only person prepared to appear on the show to debate the other side, and I imagine Doyle is very aware of that and trying not to come across as overly combative.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence...

The default remains 'do no harm'.

This if you can't find a clinical benefit and you can't demonstrate they are safe, what do you do?

This isn't a yes no question.

Dimwit.

AstonsDataThief · 23/04/2024 15:21

Absolutely no drugs are ‘safe’, they all involve some harm or risk of harm. It is always a balance of benefits and harms. No where in the Cass review does it say puberty blockers are safe. So the only question is HOW unsafe are they?

Saying “The Cass Review report does not conclude that puberty supressing hormones are an unsafe treatment.” is misleading. The most you can say is for some the benefits may outweigh the harms and risk of harms.

AstonsDataThief · 23/04/2024 15:41

AstonsDataThief · 23/04/2024 15:21

Absolutely no drugs are ‘safe’, they all involve some harm or risk of harm. It is always a balance of benefits and harms. No where in the Cass review does it say puberty blockers are safe. So the only question is HOW unsafe are they?

Saying “The Cass Review report does not conclude that puberty supressing hormones are an unsafe treatment.” is misleading. The most you can say is for some the benefits may outweigh the harms and risk of harms.

Just confirm, I do not belief the ‘benefits’ of puberty blocker come anywhere near to outweighing the harms for any child with gender dysphria/beliefs

Mytholmroyd · 23/04/2024 15:53

AstonsDataThief · 23/04/2024 13:51

Harvard are standout captured in a land of the captured. I am sure they would find this not only transphobic but also an example of colonist white supremecy heteronormative ableist homophobic racist Eurocentric oppression.

😂

AlisonDonut · 23/04/2024 16:33

AstonsDataThief · 23/04/2024 15:21

Absolutely no drugs are ‘safe’, they all involve some harm or risk of harm. It is always a balance of benefits and harms. No where in the Cass review does it say puberty blockers are safe. So the only question is HOW unsafe are they?

Saying “The Cass Review report does not conclude that puberty supressing hormones are an unsafe treatment.” is misleading. The most you can say is for some the benefits may outweigh the harms and risk of harms.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5057269-5057269-puberty-blockers-how-exactly-did-we-get-here?reply=134629481

There is a fair amount of info amassed on this thread, in terms of benefits versus harms, was there ever a reason to treat kids who didn't meet the parent's standards of liking the right things for their sex?

Zebracat · 23/04/2024 17:03

@AlisonDonut . I admire you so much and almost always agree with your posts. Please be careful about generalising about parents’ motivations. So many of these children have been coached on line and affirmed at school. Parents may have been jettisoned in favour of the glitter family or they may be hanging on by their fingernails. I know there are parents who enjoy the thrill of a so-called trans child, I’ve met them, but I’m not sure they are a majority. I think many parents are completely broken.

SinnerBoy · 23/04/2024 17:14

AstonsDataThief · Today 15:21

Saying “The Cass Review report does not conclude that puberty supressing hormones are an unsafe treatment.” is misleading. The most you can say is for some the benefits may outweigh the harms and risk of harms.

Well put.

AlisonDonut · 23/04/2024 17:20

Zebracat · 23/04/2024 17:03

@AlisonDonut . I admire you so much and almost always agree with your posts. Please be careful about generalising about parents’ motivations. So many of these children have been coached on line and affirmed at school. Parents may have been jettisoned in favour of the glitter family or they may be hanging on by their fingernails. I know there are parents who enjoy the thrill of a so-called trans child, I’ve met them, but I’m not sure they are a majority. I think many parents are completely broken.

I'm not generalising.

I spent hours poring through studies and reports and the only reason THEY gave was not conforming to stereotypes.

Indeed, Susie Green spent a fair amount of time explaining that her son was too girlie and his father didn't like it. So they took his toys away. He only said he was a girl to get his toys back. She then proceeded to turn Mermaids into a carbon copy of her motivation, and to indoctrinate everyone into thinking the same way.

I'm not talking about current parents, I'm talking about the studies and research that was originally done to justify the concept of Puberty Blockers in the first place. Particularly when it was known the risks they posed right at the start.

Zebracat · 23/04/2024 18:16

Thanks for explaining. I am appalled by that too.And by the foster parents who transed at least 2 very small children. That information from Exeter suggests young adults were being treated who had no gender incongruity whatsoever, . Our girl spent her childhood loving pink and princesses, and when I pointed out that she knew nothing about boys, told me she could be a “soft boi” and still like pastels and cuddly toys.

Emotionalsupportviper · 23/04/2024 19:42

RethinkingLife · 23/04/2024 09:04

Do we suspect Stonewall, despite their close connection to RMW and which must be a major indirect source of income (RMW has faffed with the briefs in many tribunals), had left RMW off the list of contacts when they busily updated them as to the nature of their error in re: Cass? "Frankly, not to put too fine a point on it, we didn't read it but took the word of other people who also hadn't read it but sounded like they knew what they were talking about."

RMW is still retwiXing criticism of Cass, even after Dawn Butler and Stonewall.

I can't begin to outline the many errors that RMW made when speaking to Doyle. I should think that this obdurate refusal to accept reality in re: Cass will not present RMW in a good light to future employers who may now be wary of a reputational cascade.

Again, may I recommend that anyone who wants a very readable, free book or even the free audiobook should go to Testing Treatments. Or, anyone who wants to opine about fair tests, clinical trial design, and what good methodology looks like.

https://en.testingtreatments.org/

Show quote history

Thank you so much for this link. I've downloaded.

AutumnCrow · 23/04/2024 19:43

AIstolemylunch · 23/04/2024 09:18

When I watched that I wondered if RMW takes estrogen. For someone who must have at one point been quite clever and able to mount a logical argument, as a lawyer, he seemed remarkably fuzzy. Speaking in a weird monotone voice but not able to elecuidate the point he was trying to make or what he was trying to say. Very, very unlike the barristers I know, who are remarkably lucid. I wondered if we were seeing the negative effects of wrong sex hormones on cognitive function which we know happen to children, happening to an adult as well? (ironically an adult lobbying for such treatment to be given to children).

This paper from 2010 (aprés the Great Madness) would suggest it's a possibility for males taking oestrogen.

(It's very refreshing to see emphasis of the effects of oestrogen on the brain through the lens of sexual dimorphism. I'm not going to review it (I've a few quibbles) - I just wanted to note its existence here.)

An adult male brain being washed in oestrogen is going to affect it.

'Estrogen Actions in the Brain and the Basis for Differential Action in Men and Women: A Case for Sex-Specific Medicines' by G E Gillies and S McArthur, Pharmacol Rev 2010

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2879914/

Estrogen Actions in the Brain and the Basis for Differential Action in Men and Women: A Case for Sex-Specific Medicines

The classic view of estrogen actions in the brain was confined to regulation of ovulation and reproductive behavior in the female of all mamamalian species studied, including humans. Burgeoning evidence now documents profound effects of estrogens on le...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2879914

Emotionalsupportviper · 23/04/2024 19:45

Floisme · 23/04/2024 09:01

I thought the funniest part of that interview was Robin's final, triumphal slide, stating that 'The Cass Review report does not conclude that puberty supressing hormones are an unsafe treatment.'

Yes we know - the point is that it finds the evidence in their favour is remarkably weak.

I thought Andrew Doyle let that go a bit too easily although to be fair to them both, RMW seems to be the only person prepared to appear on the show to debate the other side, and I imagine Doyle is very aware of that and trying not to come across as overly combative.

I thought Andrew Doyle let that go a bit too easily although to be fair to them both, RMW seems to be the only person prepared to appear on the show to debate the other side, and I imagine Doyle is very aware of that and trying not to come across as overly combative.

I agree - that Andrew Doyle was careful not to be openly antagonistic. He wants RMW back - apart from anything else, the more RMW says, the more he condemns his ownarguement.

AutumnCrow · 23/04/2024 20:17

AutumnCrow · 23/04/2024 19:43

This paper from 2010 (aprés the Great Madness) would suggest it's a possibility for males taking oestrogen.

(It's very refreshing to see emphasis of the effects of oestrogen on the brain through the lens of sexual dimorphism. I'm not going to review it (I've a few quibbles) - I just wanted to note its existence here.)

An adult male brain being washed in oestrogen is going to affect it.

'Estrogen Actions in the Brain and the Basis for Differential Action in Men and Women: A Case for Sex-Specific Medicines' by G E Gillies and S McArthur, Pharmacol Rev 2010

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2879914/

Show quote history

Oh bugger, too late to edit! Please replace 'aprés' with 'avant' or any word that means 'before'! I'm on codeine after an accident and I'm not quite right Grin

Waitingfordoggo · 23/04/2024 22:42

BettyFilous · 23/04/2024 07:14

Much as I love Moley’s work I think this one is unfair. There are intelligent working breeds around that table. A table of dogs would have produced a better briefing than Stonewall’s humans.

They would also undoubtedly know the difference between male and female, both dogs and humans!

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 23/04/2024 22:46

AutumnCrow · 23/04/2024 19:43

This paper from 2010 (aprés the Great Madness) would suggest it's a possibility for males taking oestrogen.

(It's very refreshing to see emphasis of the effects of oestrogen on the brain through the lens of sexual dimorphism. I'm not going to review it (I've a few quibbles) - I just wanted to note its existence here.)

An adult male brain being washed in oestrogen is going to affect it.

'Estrogen Actions in the Brain and the Basis for Differential Action in Men and Women: A Case for Sex-Specific Medicines' by G E Gillies and S McArthur, Pharmacol Rev 2010

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2879914/

Show quote history

These days, research into sex-specific medicine would probably not be funded.

I wonder how many women's suffering and deaths could be prevented by sex-specific medicines? And how many of those deaths are because research on this subject became unfashionable in the age of gender ideology and so wasn't carried out?

NotTerfNorCis · 23/04/2024 23:32

Been looking forward to seeing how the most zealous TRAs cope with Stonewall's volte face.

It's funny... and bizarre. Hilary Cass has gone from extreme transphobe with far right links to 'being right all along'! Not a blush from any of these lads! How do they cope with the daily cognitive dissonance (I guess it goes with the territory)?

https://twitter.com/oolon/status/1782694435362418984 "Gender Critical" person says puberty blockers are "abuse", I point out Cass says they should be used.

https://twitter.com/joss_prior/status/1782821389222756359 Dr Hillary Cass concludes puberty blockers are NOT unsafe.

Mind you, most TRAs (Willoughby, Montgomery, 'NotCursedE' etc.) are still behind the curve. Must still be considering how to spin the change of heart.

Swashbuckled · 23/04/2024 23:37

"Not a blush from any of these lads!"
*
🤣*

Ingenieur · 24/04/2024 06:32

@NotTerfNorCis

It's wild that Joss can spin Cass's conclusion that there is no evidence for the efficacy of PBs into "Cass concludes they are not unsafe".

These are not the same at all!

NecessaryScene · 24/04/2024 06:41

It's wild that Joss can spin Cass's conclusion that there is no evidence for the efficacy of PBs into "Cass concludes they are not unsafe".

I believe Cass said that they hadn't concluded that they were unsafe. Which as not the same as concluding they are not unsafe...

And "unsafe" for a medication would be a very strong finding. I believe that would be a "withdraw it from the market" statement.

But that's not what the Cass review was looking at - they were working on behalf of doctors, not drug regulators. She was only looking at outcomes of specific treatment pathways.

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