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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is "openly Jewish" a hate crime under the April Fools Scottish hate crime law?

388 replies

lechiffre55 · 19/04/2024 19:59

A Metropolitan police officer threatened to arrest a man for being "Openly Jewish" in London. Is this a hate crime in Scotland under the new hate crime laws?

I think it is. Could someone report it for me please I find it incredibly offensive and racist. I want to see what happens when Scottish Police try to get involved with racist actions taken by the Metropolitan Police.

https://twitter.com/Jebadoo2/status/1781393179683483960

https://twitter.com/Jebadoo2/status/1781393179683483960

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RebelliousCow · 24/04/2024 08:00

SpecialOPs · 23/04/2024 21:53

Bit odd that Arafat’s Wiki bio states he was born to Palestinian parents in Cairo in 1929 when there was no Palestinian citizens as such.

Wonder who wrote that.

His family were a high status wealthy merchant family. Mot wealthy arabs did not live in the area known as Palestine, but lived in cities such Cairo, Beirut, Aleppo and Damascus. Much of the land of Palestine was either desert or unhospitable swamp - and most arabs who lived there were subsistence farmers or nomadic bedouins.

turbonerd · 24/04/2024 08:27

Thank you for your posts @RebelliousCow
Facts never go amiss.
Apart from everything horrific, it really irks when people are so un- or mis-informed and at the same time so adamant they have «history on their side» or some equally inane crap.

That anti-semitism is on the rise again is truly horrifying. Calling it anti-zionism and actually thinking that makes it a-ok is just breath-takingly ignorant and wicked.

datcherygrateful · 24/04/2024 08:28

turbonerd · 24/04/2024 08:27

Thank you for your posts @RebelliousCow
Facts never go amiss.
Apart from everything horrific, it really irks when people are so un- or mis-informed and at the same time so adamant they have «history on their side» or some equally inane crap.

That anti-semitism is on the rise again is truly horrifying. Calling it anti-zionism and actually thinking that makes it a-ok is just breath-takingly ignorant and wicked.

why not?

They are not the same.

turbonerd · 24/04/2024 08:30

Hélène79 · 23/04/2024 19:31

@turbonerd Pretty terrifying isn't it. Their "privacy" being...literally the uni grounds. Honestly thought it was some kind of amateur dramatics at first! And plans to do the same in other colleges apparently.

a student org plan to replicate this in other colleges in the US?
But it is kettling, isn’t it? Denial of access to public space at best?
How can this be ok by the colleges?

turbonerd · 24/04/2024 08:31

datcherygrateful · 24/04/2024 08:28

why not?

They are not the same.

Please explain the difference to me. I would genuinely like it to be set out clearly so I can understand.

RebelliousCow · 24/04/2024 08:59

datcherygrateful · 24/04/2024 08:28

why not?

They are not the same.

They are definitely linked, even as most of those chanting the slogans remain unaware of that.

datcherygrateful · 24/04/2024 09:02

Antisemitism is a form of prejudice against Jewish people based PURELY on their RELIGIOUS beliefs and/or ETHNIC identity.
It goes back thousands of years and is steeped in cruel bias and harmful stereotypes or outright hostility. It's bigotted and created lots of tropes.

Antizionism is the criticism of the POLITICAL ideology of Zionism. This does not inherently involve prejudice against Jewish people, but it criticizes and focuses on political and territorial disputes and military practices, and rights of Palestinians.

Basically one attacks an identify the other a political stance.

I can't ignore that yes some may use antizionism to cover up anti-Semitism, but it is also very dangerous to unfairly label anyone with legitimate criticism of Israeli policies as antisemtic as that deflects or shuts down debate.

It is antisemitic to say "all Jews are responsible for what is going on in Israel"

but similarly and this is why we cannot conflate, it is antisemitic to say "Criticising Israel means you are attacking ALL Jews"

Incidentally, many CHRISTIAN Zionists (quite a few who are OPENLY antisemitic) strongly support Israeli govt policies and actions, and heavily fund them, but for very insidious reasons; using Jewish people as cannon fodder for the End Times- they're happy to see the Jewish people burn or convert. How is that not antisemitic?? Blows my mind how that little detail gets brushed over in debate.

Yet, it is the Palestinians, who have lived amongst Jewish people for millennia, in peace, that are the crazy ones that "want to wipe the Jews off the map"?????

datcherygrateful · 24/04/2024 09:15

You will have extremists at any march tbh- antisemitism is rife in the far right white supremacy marches disguised as 'anti muslim, anti palestinian or anti refugee' they're racist and anti semitic too.

You can be pro Palestinian rights and pro Jewish people. They are not mutually exclusive.

EdithStourton · 24/04/2024 09:34

Yet, it is the Palestinians, who have lived amongst Jewish people for millennia, in peace, that are the crazy ones that "want to wipe the Jews off the map"?????
The difficulties that Jews had in Arab countries (dhimmi status, that sort of thing) long predate Zionism and the foundation of Israel. Settled Jewish communities long predated Islam in many (if not all) of these countries. In fact, there were huge Jewish communities in many Middle Eastern countries in 1945. They were ethnically cleansed, often with theft, violence and murder, post 1948 (and some of the violence and murder predated 1948).

As for anti-Zionism, you're doing well if you can shove a fag-paper between that and anti-semitism in some (probably many, I don't know) Muslim countries. I am familiar with one Muslim country and you can't utter the word 'Jew' in the company of pretty ordinary middle-class Muslims, who are otherwise delightful, social, helpful people, without causing raised eyebrows. I've come across some really rank antisemitism from people there. And make no mistake, it's the Jews who are demonised, not the Israelis or Israel or Zionism or Netanyahu.

So yes, in theory there is a division between anti-Zionism and anti-semitism, but in practice it's actually quite elusive.

I have criticised Israel in the presence of Jewish friends and have never been told that I'm being antisemitic. Which is not surprising, as I'm quite often echoing what they have to say.

LarkLane · 24/04/2024 09:39

I take on board some of the points you make datchery, for example the extremists that try and attach themselves to any march.

Watching a great number of people shouting Nazi and Scum at a London Jew making his own protest at the side of the road, is more than them exhibiting prejudice as you describe anti semitism. I'd call it a clear example of Jew hate.

songaboutjam · 24/04/2024 09:47

What I would like to know is why so many are so vocally opposed to the existence of a Jewish state and hold Israel to such high standards (in fact Israel seems to face more criticism than most other countries, even when they do similar things), and yet so few of those same people seem to have energy for the horrors happening elsewhere.

Where are the calls to boycott China for their human rights abuses against Uyghurs? Maybe it's just too inconvenient to go without new phones and plastic gizmos and fast fashion. Maybe it's not the same as boycotting Israel because a trade alliance with China offers more personal benefit.

Where are all the marches for Darfur? Maybe it's just not fashionable to care about African countries. Maybe it's just uncomfortable to draw attention to actions that highlight the Western-centric nature of your framework of race and power dynamics. Maybe it's easier to criticise Israel because lots of Jews look white and lots of Palestinians don't.

Have we grown bored of Ukraine now? I don't see the people in my town demanding justice for the Bucha victims or calling for the West to do more, but they're out in force every weekend waving Palestinian flags and shouting at cars. Maybe Israel is a less scary target than Russia.

Why does anti-Israel sentiment stay in fashion but all the other causes of the moment get forgotten?

EasternStandard · 24/04/2024 09:51

LarkLane · 24/04/2024 09:39

I take on board some of the points you make datchery, for example the extremists that try and attach themselves to any march.

Watching a great number of people shouting Nazi and Scum at a London Jew making his own protest at the side of the road, is more than them exhibiting prejudice as you describe anti semitism. I'd call it a clear example of Jew hate.

It was eye opening to see how little can provoke such a reaction

I’m still finding that Twitter clip with the make a chain chanting unbelievable

It’s beyond normal. What is going on with those people

turbonerd · 24/04/2024 10:01

datcherygrateful · 24/04/2024 09:02

Antisemitism is a form of prejudice against Jewish people based PURELY on their RELIGIOUS beliefs and/or ETHNIC identity.
It goes back thousands of years and is steeped in cruel bias and harmful stereotypes or outright hostility. It's bigotted and created lots of tropes.

Antizionism is the criticism of the POLITICAL ideology of Zionism. This does not inherently involve prejudice against Jewish people, but it criticizes and focuses on political and territorial disputes and military practices, and rights of Palestinians.

Basically one attacks an identify the other a political stance.

I can't ignore that yes some may use antizionism to cover up anti-Semitism, but it is also very dangerous to unfairly label anyone with legitimate criticism of Israeli policies as antisemtic as that deflects or shuts down debate.

It is antisemitic to say "all Jews are responsible for what is going on in Israel"

but similarly and this is why we cannot conflate, it is antisemitic to say "Criticising Israel means you are attacking ALL Jews"

Incidentally, many CHRISTIAN Zionists (quite a few who are OPENLY antisemitic) strongly support Israeli govt policies and actions, and heavily fund them, but for very insidious reasons; using Jewish people as cannon fodder for the End Times- they're happy to see the Jewish people burn or convert. How is that not antisemitic?? Blows my mind how that little detail gets brushed over in debate.

Yet, it is the Palestinians, who have lived amongst Jewish people for millennia, in peace, that are the crazy ones that "want to wipe the Jews off the map"?????

edited to say Thank you for your answer

It is ok and necessary to criticise political decisions - ones made by Israel and others.
But to then state that one is Anti-Zionist, in fact Anti-Israel as a state, that is something else in my book.

Israel is there. It is a nation state, like most states in the rest of the world now.

I don’t know about how peaceful Hamas and Hezbollah are. Not very, I’d say. And they are the political representation of the palestinians. Sadly.
Very difficult to achieve peace if the stated political goal of your adversary is to wipe you, your people, your culture, your language and your religion off the face of the earth.

I really wish a peaceful solution can be reached. But obviously Hamas would need to tweak their manifesto a little for that to be possible.

The influence of the British, French and later USA in the region particularly after ww1 cannot be underestimated.

RebelliousCow · 24/04/2024 10:12

datcherygrateful · 24/04/2024 09:02

Antisemitism is a form of prejudice against Jewish people based PURELY on their RELIGIOUS beliefs and/or ETHNIC identity.
It goes back thousands of years and is steeped in cruel bias and harmful stereotypes or outright hostility. It's bigotted and created lots of tropes.

Antizionism is the criticism of the POLITICAL ideology of Zionism. This does not inherently involve prejudice against Jewish people, but it criticizes and focuses on political and territorial disputes and military practices, and rights of Palestinians.

Basically one attacks an identify the other a political stance.

I can't ignore that yes some may use antizionism to cover up anti-Semitism, but it is also very dangerous to unfairly label anyone with legitimate criticism of Israeli policies as antisemtic as that deflects or shuts down debate.

It is antisemitic to say "all Jews are responsible for what is going on in Israel"

but similarly and this is why we cannot conflate, it is antisemitic to say "Criticising Israel means you are attacking ALL Jews"

Incidentally, many CHRISTIAN Zionists (quite a few who are OPENLY antisemitic) strongly support Israeli govt policies and actions, and heavily fund them, but for very insidious reasons; using Jewish people as cannon fodder for the End Times- they're happy to see the Jewish people burn or convert. How is that not antisemitic?? Blows my mind how that little detail gets brushed over in debate.

Yet, it is the Palestinians, who have lived amongst Jewish people for millennia, in peace, that are the crazy ones that "want to wipe the Jews off the map"?????

Yet Israel is the one country - which is the world's only Jewish state - which is singled out for continual focus. Jeremy Corbyn said that the 'Middle Eastern' issue is the most important one in the world, on which everyone shoud focus. He referred to Hamas and Hezbollah as "friends". We can look back to Soviet history to understand a bit of why that is the case.

There are plenty of other recently formed countries in the world, some much more recently formed than Israel, and yet it is Israel which continues to attract such ire from Western Leftists ( primarily) - with denials of its right to exist, along with calls to sanction it and boycott Israeli produce ( even though Israel has provided vital jobs and income to many living in Gaza and the West Bank.)

Israel is a counry with a free press and multiple political parties. It is a democracy. Criticism of Israeli government policy is as valid as criticism of the policies of any other government. Any criticisms that are made, are also made by Israelis themselves in the context of free speech and parliamentary debate.
Legitimate criticism is not anti semitic - nobody suggests it is - it is the over focus and concentration on denying Israel's very right to exist which is the issue.

We don't see people getting quite so excited about Pakistan, or Afghanistan ,any other of the Muslim states, or marching every weekend about the regime in Iran, or the various vicious, brutal civil wars and massacres going on in African countries, or what is going on in Haiti and so on. Why is it Israel which attracts such special treatment and focus? The reason: Hatred of Israel is an article of faith on the Left and has been since the 1960's -with roots in leftist thinking about America and 'the West' in general.

Zionism is not just a political ideology - it is also the longing for home which is common in most human societies. For Jewish people this longing found a place to settle in Israel. We don't need to recount the thousands of years of persecutions, massacres, expulsions - that finally ended in the gas chambers of Europe - to understand why Zionism has such a pull.

Yet those who call themselves 'Pro-Palestinians' see no double standards or irony in calling for a Palestinian state - to which even third generation people born in the U.S.A, South America or Europe would be given a right of return. To a country that has never before existed based on the fact that their ancestors were born in that region.

What we are witnessing on the streets oof Britain now is a combination of Leftist obsession with Israel, combined with the natural emnity towards Jews from many muslims - and a new young generation of social media imspired political activists who know little about the roots of that against which they demonstrate. Hating on Israel, and not having the skills to evaluate complex, long standing issues or differentiate between particular Israeli Government policies; the Zionist project, the existence of Israel, the presence of 'openly' Jewish people - especially those who have zionist sympathies ( which is most) leads us to the current situation - in which blatamnt anti semitic and jew hating behaviour is becoming increasingly common, and even tolerated and excuses made for it.

RebelliousCow · 24/04/2024 10:18

datcherygrateful · 24/04/2024 09:15

You will have extremists at any march tbh- antisemitism is rife in the far right white supremacy marches disguised as 'anti muslim, anti palestinian or anti refugee' they're racist and anti semitic too.

You can be pro Palestinian rights and pro Jewish people. They are not mutually exclusive.

So long as they are not Israeli, or those who are Zionists. Only the 'good' jews are acceptable?

datcherygrateful · 24/04/2024 10:20

RebelliousCow · 24/04/2024 10:12

Yet Israel is the one country - which is the world's only Jewish state - which is singled out for continual focus. Jeremy Corbyn said that the 'Middle Eastern' issue is the most important one in the world, on which everyone shoud focus. He referred to Hamas and Hezbollah as "friends". We can look back to Soviet history to understand a bit of why that is the case.

There are plenty of other recently formed countries in the world, some much more recently formed than Israel, and yet it is Israel which continues to attract such ire from Western Leftists ( primarily) - with denials of its right to exist, along with calls to sanction it and boycott Israeli produce ( even though Israel has provided vital jobs and income to many living in Gaza and the West Bank.)

Israel is a counry with a free press and multiple political parties. It is a democracy. Criticism of Israeli government policy is as valid as criticism of the policies of any other government. Any criticisms that are made, are also made by Israelis themselves in the context of free speech and parliamentary debate.
Legitimate criticism is not anti semitic - nobody suggests it is - it is the over focus and concentration on denying Israel's very right to exist which is the issue.

We don't see people getting quite so excited about Pakistan, or Afghanistan ,any other of the Muslim states, or marching every weekend about the regime in Iran, or the various vicious, brutal civil wars and massacres going on in African countries, or what is going on in Haiti and so on. Why is it Israel which attracts such special treatment and focus? The reason: Hatred of Israel is an article of faith on the Left and has been since the 1960's -with roots in leftist thinking about America and 'the West' in general.

Zionism is not just a political ideology - it is also the longing for home which is common in most human societies. For Jewish people this longing found a place to settle in Israel. We don't need to recount the thousands of years of persecutions, massacres, expulsions - that finally ended in the gas chambers of Europe - to understand why Zionism has such a pull.

Yet those who call themselves 'Pro-Palestinians' see no double standards or irony in calling for a Palestinian state - to which even third generation people born in the U.S.A, South America or Europe would be given a right of return. To a country that has never before existed based on the fact that their ancestors were born in that region.

What we are witnessing on the streets oof Britain now is a combination of Leftist obsession with Israel, combined with the natural emnity towards Jews from many muslims - and a new young generation of social media imspired political activists who know little about the roots of that against which they demonstrate. Hating on Israel, and not having the skills to evaluate complex, long standing issues or differentiate between particular Israeli Government policies; the Zionist project, the existence of Israel, the presence of 'openly' Jewish people - especially those who have zionist sympathies ( which is most) leads us to the current situation - in which blatamnt anti semitic and jew hating behaviour is becoming increasingly common, and even tolerated and excuses made for it.

Edited

The over arching difference is that the UK, USA and other western democracies openly CONDEMN what is happening n Pakistan, Iran. Syria. Saudi Arabia. China. Russia etc.

But simultaneously CONDONE the actions of BB's gvt. Israel is a democracy too, when others are not.

The line must be drawn equally where all govts are held to account.

Israel is not singled out for reasons you say i.e "because it is a Jewish state"
It is talked about extensively because of the impunity the government has; the lack of accountability and relentless arms support. There are countries that are doing much worse than the Israeli govt yes , but at the same time, but the international community are quick to condemn them.

How many politicians have openly agreed that China's treatment of Muslims, or Russia's anything, IR Iran's treatment of their people are just and in proportion and that they should just crack on?

That's the difference. It's politics.

RebelliousCow · 24/04/2024 10:27

datcherygrateful · 24/04/2024 10:20

The over arching difference is that the UK, USA and other western democracies openly CONDEMN what is happening n Pakistan, Iran. Syria. Saudi Arabia. China. Russia etc.

But simultaneously CONDONE the actions of BB's gvt. Israel is a democracy too, when others are not.

The line must be drawn equally where all govts are held to account.

Israel is not singled out for reasons you say i.e "because it is a Jewish state"
It is talked about extensively because of the impunity the government has; the lack of accountability and relentless arms support. There are countries that are doing much worse than the Israeli govt yes , but at the same time, but the international community are quick to condemn them.

How many politicians have openly agreed that China's treatment of Muslims, or Russia's anything, IR Iran's treatment of their people are just and in proportion and that they should just crack on?

That's the difference. It's politics.

Israel has been singled out by Western Leftists because it has American support - and because American has also been the great enemy of Western Socialists. That Russian Jews who were amongst the first Communist intellectuals should also embrace their Jewish identity and the Zionist project could never be forgiven.

Most people who are on those, almost weekly, marches have no clue about the rest of the world's conflicts. They are there through tribalistic solidarity; and that includes all of those SWP people and other socialist factions who have been hating on Israel long before Netanyahu was even on the scene. I know that - because I've been around Left culture a lot in my life. Back in the 1980's everyone was wearing shemags too - and boycotting Israel was the thing to do. For these people Israel. Full stop. Is the issue - not just one of its governments.

RebelliousCow · 24/04/2024 10:41

Regarding Israel having the support of the U.S, let's not forget that Hamas and Hezbollah, the Houthis etc have the support of Iran.

I was reading the obituary of Terry Anderson last night. Remember He, Terry Waite and Brian Keenan, amongst others, were held hostage by Hezbollah in the 1980s/90s?

The tensions in the middle East are the focus for various world powers and alignments and have been for a long time. That includes Russian interests too.

Xenia · 24/04/2024 10:43

Good posts by *Rebellious".
The US university with the problems has moved all classes online so things can calm down (they need to ensure the safety of jewish students and indeed anyone who is not on the Hamas side).

SpecialOPs · 24/04/2024 11:13

Antizionism is the criticism of the POLITICAL ideology of Zionism. This does not inherently involve prejudice against Jewish people, but it criticizes and focuses on political and territorial disputes and military practices, and rights of Palestinians.

Quite simply anti Zionism is opposition to a Jewish state, i.e. Israel, even existing. How on earth can you state this does not inherently involve prejudice against Jewish people?

You could argue that it’s military practices are driven from the declarations of war (9 wars in all I think), incessant rocket attacks and terrorist attacks which started from the first day of its inception.

Let’s ignore the fact Israel is a legally recognised country and its creation was agreed by the governing authority at that time after over 400 years of Ottoman rule in that area.

I can’t think of any other country in the world where there are cries that it should not exist due to the religion of the majority of its citizens, can you @datcherygrateful?

datcherygrateful · 24/04/2024 11:20

It is very unique in that regard I agree.
but having an ethnoreligious state is a very unique thing too so I cannot make parallels or draw comparisons.

It is unique. No other state is exclusive in this way.

Israel is of course a legal state.
Its practices are not.

Quite simply anti Zionism is opposition to a Jewish state, i.e. Israel, even existing. How on earth can you state this does not inherently involve prejudice against Jewish people?

Well how can you explain that many Jews (Orthodox and Reform) claim contrary?
Zionism was opposed by many Jews in the 1800's and 1900's.

anti Zionism TODAY is anti politics of the state of Israel.

quantumbutterfly · 24/04/2024 11:28

Weren't Pakistan & Bangladesh formed as religious states? Iran too since the revolution that replaced Persia. (Iran means land of the Aryans I believe, some awful historic resonance there)

lechiffre55 · 24/04/2024 11:28

Can I just say that the quality of debate seems to have gone right up.

OP posts:
LarkLane · 24/04/2024 11:35

quantumbutterfly · 24/04/2024 11:28

Weren't Pakistan & Bangladesh formed as religious states? Iran too since the revolution that replaced Persia. (Iran means land of the Aryans I believe, some awful historic resonance there)

My Kashmiri friends will be along soon to give their views on the British and the partition of the Indian Empire.

Followed by the Kurds, who weren't too keen on Saddam Hussein. despite George Galloways love for all things Saddam.

quantumbutterfly · 24/04/2024 11:42

LarkLane · 24/04/2024 11:35

My Kashmiri friends will be along soon to give their views on the British and the partition of the Indian Empire.

Followed by the Kurds, who weren't too keen on Saddam Hussein. despite George Galloways love for all things Saddam.

Indeed. And yet there are Sikh separatists in India who want their own state too.